soonsister Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 647 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 283 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, OneLight said: No, not seeking information, but perhaps a little confused by your replies. When you replied with the last two verses, it appeared to me that you were placing baptism as a necessity to salvation, as in without baptism, one is not saved. That's OK. The confusion appears to be on both our parts since your replies appear to say that baptism isn't necessary at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 Those who fall away or walk away are by doing so proving they are not true disciples. I go back to examining the hearts of those who hear the gospel. Perhaps those who hear the gospel and produce good fruit are the ones that Father God chose and are true believers. Many are called but few are chosen. Those who love God's word are the ones who persevere. Their roots run deep into His Word. True disciples are those who do not fall away. Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luk 8:12 Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. Luk 8:13 Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. Luk 8:14 That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. Luk 8:15 Those in the good ground, these are those who with an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and produce fruit with perseverance. Jesus also spoke of the vine and the branches: We are here commanded to remain in Christ so that we can bear fruit and thus prove to be His disciples. This seems to be indicating that we do have a choice whether to remain in Christ or not. But perseverance seems to be a test of true discipleship. The branches that do not bear fruit are cut off and burned. Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Joh 15:3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Joh 15:4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. Joh 15:5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Joh 15:6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. Joh 15:7 If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you. Joh 15:8 “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples.Joh 15:9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love. Joh 15:11 I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be made full. Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soonsister Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 647 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 283 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, Willa said: Those who fall away or walk away are by doing so proving they are not true disciples. I go back to examining the hearts of those who hear the gospel. Perhaps those who hear the gospel and produce good fruit are the ones that Father God chose and are true believers. Many are called but few are chosen. Those who love God's word are the ones who persevere. Their roots run deep into His Word. True disciples are those who do not fall away. Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luk 8:12 Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. Luk 8:13 Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. Luk 8:14 That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. Luk 8:15 Those in the good ground, these are those who with an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and produce fruit with perseverance. Jesus also spoke of the vine and the branches: We are here commanded to remain in Christ so that we can bear fruit and thus prove to be His disciples. This seems to be indicating that we do have a choice whether to remain in Christ or not. But perseverance seems to be a test of true discipleship. The branches that do not bear fruit are cut off and burned. Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Joh 15:3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Joh 15:4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. Joh 15:5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Joh 15:6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. Joh 15:7 If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you. Joh 15:8 “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples.Joh 15:9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love. Joh 15:11 I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be made full. Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. I believe you are correct. 1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.36 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 3 hours ago, OneLight said: Point is, salvation comes first, then obedience. Correct. There are a couple of verses which seem to suggest that water baptism is essential for salvation (e.g. Mark 16:16). What they are really teaching is that water baptism is so essential for the saved, that it cannot be separated from salvation. The New Testament practice was to baptize immediately upon conversion. The best passage which puts everything in proper perspective is Acts 10:34-48. In this the Gospel is preached, Gentiles are saved, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, following which water baptism is commanded and completed. Just as repentance is commanded, baptism is commanded. The majority of churches today DO NOT follow this New Testament pattern, and as a result many new converts do not get solidly grounded in the faith. The Lord also commanded that following baptism, the Church was to make disciples (Mt 28:18-20). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soonsister Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 647 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 283 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Yowm said: The lack of baptism doesn't damn a person but the despising of baptism is a sign one is not saved. Agreed. I think the verse in Mark is notable in that the text is clear that faith and baptism are related. "And he said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Notice the "and". It grammatically connects faith to baptism as part of obedience to God's salvation plan. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. Belief of course if the first step toward all of it. One cannot obey God's will until they are in God's covenant because prior to as one dead in their sins and separated from God, God's will for one's life is unimportant.Obedience isn't an issue because God isn't part of the persons life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soonsister Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 647 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 283 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Yowm said: I also notice the lack of 'and' (which may be the reason for the differences) in... "..but he who does not believe *[AND IS NOT BAPTIZED] will be condemned. *contents in brackets added to illustrate a point. Agreed. Belief precedes baptism. Therefore those who do not believe would not seek baptism which is related to entry into the covenant of salvation. Belief precedes it all on our part when we are , believe we are, called by God to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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