kwikphilly Posted January 22, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,816 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2017 Quote Got Questions is a Christian ministry. They have a literal and truthful interpretation of Scripture. Life is full of choices. You can read those words or deny them. I am not arguing with anyone. Worthy is a Christian Ministry & got.questions.org is no different than this Ministry,they have PEOPLE who interpret the Word of God,anyone from ordained ministers to laymen...all on a voluntary basis just like here..................... Yes Marcus,I agree.....I don't want to have a discussion with anyone who is not present Quote My POINT is that in every case where "elect" is used in the Greek NT for a person or people, it ALWAYS refers to believers, i.e., the Church. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 22, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2017 18 hours ago, BacKaran said: The Great white throne judgement is where the sheep and goats are separated. Thats on the chart. Well then the chart is wrong, and so is the so-called "pre-wrath" interpretation. One could spend a lot of time refuting this interpretation, but that is unproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted January 22, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Yes, I agree kwikphilly. It is impossible to have a meaningful debate with a website and an anonymous writer. I will however, post my rebuttal to this last point. 1 hour ago, missmuffet said: A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized. Pre-Wrath eschatology, as I have come to it through my analysis of the sequence-of-events in linear, prophetic, end-time narratives is consistent. This new paradigm in exegesis of prophecy does not rely on any single word, verse, or passage upon which to draw a conclusion - but, Scripture is exactly consistent in sequencing the Rapture of God's Elect prior to His Wrath. Furthermore, we can draw a conclusion that the Rapture is real - some people are on a mission to destroy that idea! - and that the Rapture happens at some point after the midpoint of the one 'seven' but well before its end. We have endless arguments over Scripture, and many of them remind me of the fable of the five blind men examining an elephant and trying to convince the others what an elephant is like. That's what happens when you myopically focus on one single aspect of end-time prophecy and disregard all that which conflicts with any view derived from it. Edited January 22, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BacKaran Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Hi Ezra I did say I was wrong...I confused the sheep goats with the white throne judgement. And I did say the rest follows Revelation 20. Thanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 5, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) On 1/21/2017 at 2:21 PM, BacKaran said: Alan Kurschner is a great Pre-Wrath author and brother in Christ. I was pre wrath before I even knew what it was and just a baby in Christ. Here are some charts he made as I'm a visual person. I'd like to debate but I'm not a debater and Scripture doesn't roll of my tongue so no debate needed, this is just for all who may be curious about Pre-Wrath and want to see how it differs from other views. Blessings, ? Karan For all who wish to know, Prewrath began because two men did not understand that the signs in the sun and moon will happen, TWICE, once as the sign for the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and again as the sign for the coming of the Lord. I have studied both of their first books in depth. They did not understand this and a whole new way of thinking on the end times is the result. I might add, this prewrath though must totally can completely rearrange Revelation to make it work. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong. For those that wish to research, Joel chapter 3 shows BOTH of these signs in the sun, and the last one is definitely The time of Jesus' coming in power as seen in Rev. 19. My point is, prewrath is in no way the intent of the Author. Edited February 5, 2017 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 5, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 1/22/2017 at 1:42 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said: Just because Pre-Wrath eschatology invalidates other eschatologies' definitions and assumptions does not necessarily mean it is flawed. A close comparison of the "beginning of birth pains" - which Jesus uses rather than saying it is "God's Wrath" can be made between the (expanded) Gospel account(s) of the Olivet Discourse and the first four Seals. A good scholar studying the first four Seals ought to immediately go to OT prophecy, which is alluded to in Jesus' Revelation to John with the four horsemen Zechariah sees coming out of Heaven. These four horsemen are described as "spirits" who go to work in the world in various directions. There is no evidence in the broad overview account of the Seal/Scroll chronology that the first four Seals bring desolation upon the earth to the magnitude that even the first four Trumpets do - working just to a third of the earth. "It would seem" begins a conclusion by the nameless author of a website who is not present to debate. His only evidence for saying the conditions following the Seals being God's Judgments are that only Jesus is worthy to open the Scroll. However, as the Father has sealed it, and I think the Scroll relates directly to Daniel 9:26 where the desolations God has decreed are stored - it follows that only the Son can open it. It is not a logical following that just because Jesus is the only one worthy to unseal the Scroll, that what follows are Judgments - and with the first, fifth, and seventh - no harm is described at all which affects the wicked as a judgment - period. To say they all are judgments is not supported in Revelation. The Scroll's contents, which are sealed, then contains God's Judgments - which are desolations which affect wide portions and later on, the entire earth as a physical punishment to the proud and wicked. The one 'seven' begins when "ruler (prince) who will come" prevails the covenant with many. The Great Tribulation begins only when the (midpoint) abomination (of) desolation mentioned by Gabriel occurs - in the Holy Place. To say: "The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal" is a conclusion and is not supported by Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, or Daniel 9:27. The Seals are but the beginning of birth pains. I think including them as beginning the one 'seven' is incorrect. I think the first four Seals have already been broken. Sorry guys or gals, but NO VERSE can be pulled out of its context. Everyone wished to pull the first seal out and make every kind of outlandish theory on it. In its context, Jesus has just ascended into heaven and just took the scroll from the Father, so the time is around 32 AD. (if you doubt me, read chapter 5: John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended.) So the first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's feeble attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. However, God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the surface of the earth. Seal five is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Finally, at seal six, it is time for judgment, telling us the church has been raptured. Seal 7 is the offical opening of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. You were close, the first 5 seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted February 6, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2017 22 hours ago, iamlamad said: In its context, Jesus has just ascended into heaven and just took the scroll from the Father, so the time is around 32 AD. Oh boy. I think you have made a huge presumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 6, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2017 Just now, Marcus O'Reillius said: Oh boy. I think you have made a huge presumption. Read chapters 4 & 5 and answer these questions: they are the very questions God asked me - and I could not answer. Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the father, when there are a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be? Why was "no man found" in that first search John watched end in failure (the reason he was weeping)? Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended? (hint: look for the verse that shows WHEN the Holy Spirit was sent down.) This is not an assumption: it is understanding chapter 4 & 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted February 6, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2017 The Lord's holy spirit is always present on the earth, but not always involved in all events Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus O'Reillius Posted February 7, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,050 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 632 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/29/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2017 23 hours ago, iamlamad said: Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the father, when there are a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be? Immediately? If you want "immediate" I suggest you read John 20:17 and then read Zechariah 3:1-8. I put it to you that Jesus went to Heaven after that meeting with Mary and the Court scene in Zechariah commenced. In addition, the "men wondered at" in Zec 3:8 may very well be those souls who Jesus brought "captives" with Him as per Ps 68:18 and whom I think are the 24 Elders. But John wrote the book of Christ's Revelation to him in the last decade of the first century. IF you want to take a Preterist view - you have a daunting task ahead of you because it - just - plain - can't - fit - history - to - Scripture. Jesus kept "popping" in and out of our world between the meeting in the Garden and His Ascension from the Mount of Olives. Where was He during those times He wasn't "here" before He went "there"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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