"All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

This "fact" of yours, which forms the foundation for what follows, has no, real  basis in prophecy.

It is a conclusion you have drawn yourself.

Please allow me to ask you a question: if the Lord spoke to you, and you heard his audible voice - or what seemed audible to you - and told you you could find the exact midpoint of the 70th week "clearly marked," told you how to find it, and then told you that you could in fact find the ENTIRE 70th week "clearly marked" - - what you YOU do? Just ignore Him? Or would you follow what He told you on HOW to find it, and then proceed to find what He sent you to find?

I obeyed Him. And, by the way, this "fact" is truth.

Edited June 4, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

51 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 7:31 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

The Rapture does struggle against these Scriptures, "And the beast was allowed to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation," (Revelation 13:7),

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Reading verse 8 shows True Christians, who's names are written in the book of life will not be overcome or be ruled over;

KJV. Rev 13: 7, And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
   

v. 8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, who's names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,"

Except true Christians, who's name's "ARE" written in the book of life! - Verse 8.

Are they raptured and in Heaven being protected?

Yes to your question, they WILL BE in heaven in a place of protection. That is, the BRIDE will be there. But there will be NEW beleivers on the earth, who came to Him too late for the rapture. It will be they who will not worship the Beast and will lose their head. God has said it, twice: the saints WILL BE overcome. They won't worship the beast, but they WILL be overcome. But those who are raptured out to escape all these things, will not have to face the Beast.

[HAZARD]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Yes to your question, they WILL BE in heaven in a place of protection. That is, the BRIDE will be there. But there will be NEW beleivers on the earth, who came to Him too late for the rapture. It will be they who will not worship the Beast and will lose their head. God has said it, twice: the saints WILL BE overcome. They won't worship the beast, but they WILL be overcome. But those who are raptured out to escape all these things, will not have to face the Beast.

Your talking about these people who live through the tribulation;

 And the purpose of the tribulation is;

(1) To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfil the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11;25-29).

(2) To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22;17-22;  Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4).

(3) To plead with and bring Israel into bond with the new covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; mal. 4:3, 4).

(4) To Judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33,34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31).

(5) To Judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa. 63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:-19:21).

(6) To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech. 12:10-13;9 Rom. 11:26-29;  Matt. 23:39).

(7) To fulfil the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19; 21; Matt. 24:15, 29).

(8) To cause Isra to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be so persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5 Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12).

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Your talking about these people who live through the tribulation;

 And the purpose of the tribulation is;

(1) To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfil the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11;25-29).

(2) To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22;17-22;  Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4).

(3) To plead with and bring Israel into bond with the new covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; mal. 4:3, 4).

(4) To Judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33,34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31).

(5) To Judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa. 63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:-19:21).

(6) To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech. 12:10-13;9 Rom. 11:26-29;  Matt. 23:39).

(7) To fulfil the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19; 21; Matt. 24:15, 29).

(8) To cause Isra to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be so persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5 Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12).

I pretty much agree with this: I did not look up every verse.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Please allow me to ask you a question: if the Lord spoke to you, and you heard his audible voice - or what seemed audible to you - and told you you could find the exact midpoint of the 70th week "clearly marked," told you how to find it, and then told you that you could in fact find the ENTIRE 70th week "clearly marked" - - what you YOU do? Just ignore Him? Or would you follow what He told you on HOW to find it, and then proceed to find what He sent you to find?

I obeyed Him. And, by the way, this "fact" is truth.

You have crossed over sound exegesis and have joined those who now proclaim to "know" based on your testimony that "God told me," or that "The Holy Spirit told me."

So prophet iamlamad: if your prophecy is true, then it cannot conflict with actual prophecy from Jesus.

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, that we would see these events come in this order (Mt 24:15-31)

• The (midpoint) abomination (of Daniel 9:27)
• The Great Tribulation
• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• The Gathering of the Elect (rapture).

In the sixth Seal, Jesus told John:

• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Scrolling of the Sky - which is a Sign.
• The "mustering" of the 144,000.
• The ARRIVAL in Heaven of the Great Multitude OUT OF the Great Tribulation.

In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in chapters 13-16 Jesus showed John:

• Ch 13: The rise of a beast of a nation.
• The rise of a beast of a man.
• The false prophet of the land (Israel).
• The revealed abomination of Daniel 9:27 as a talking image of the beast of a man.
• Two Laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect.
• Ch 14: Jesus on the earth with the 144,000.
• Three Angels.
• The Gathering Harvest of the Elect from the clouds by Jesus.
• The First Trumpet Winepress of God's Wrath, specifically: the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

In Daniel, Gabriel, who is a messenger from God to whom Jesus calls a prophet: Daniel

• The one 'seven' begins with a covenant.

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Now in all these - the one 'seven' begins with an agreement forged by the beast of a man, the ruler who will come.

The midpoint abomination happens before the Rapture - so the one 'seven began THREE AND A HALF YEARS PRIOR.

Likewise, the Result of that Rapture happens with the sixth Seal - so by THAT TIME - the one 'seven's covenant was made MORE THAN three and a half years prior.

In the detailed parallel account, the Rapture from the clouds happens after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation.

In ALL OF THESE - the one 'seven' has already started BEFORE the Rapture.

ONLY in your head, do you have a statement which is at odds with actual prophecy.

So for this reason, your testimony - which does not conform to Scripture - must be discounted, and rejected.

Don't believe everything you think - or think you hear...

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You have crossed over sound exegesis and have joined those who now proclaim to "know" based on your testimony that "God told me," or that "The Holy Spirit told me."

So prophet iamlamad: if your prophecy is true, then it cannot conflict with actual prophecy from Jesus.

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, that we would see these events come in this order (Mt 24:15-31)

• The (midpoint) abomination (of Daniel 9:27)
• The Great Tribulation
• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• The Gathering of the Elect (rapture).

In the sixth Seal, Jesus told John:

• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Scrolling of the Sky - which is a Sign.
• The "mustering" of the 144,000.
• The ARRIVAL in Heaven of the Great Multitude OUT OF the Great Tribulation.

In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in chapters 13-16 Jesus showed John:

• Ch 13: The rise of a beast of a nation.
• The rise of a beast of a man.
• The false prophet of the land (Israel).
• The revealed abomination of Daniel 9:27 as a talking image of the beast of a man.
• Two Laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect.
• Ch 14: Jesus on the earth with the 144,000.
• Three Angels.
• The Gathering Harvest of the Elect from the clouds by Jesus.
• The First Trumpet Winepress of God's Wrath, specifically: the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

In Daniel, Gabriel, who is a messenger from God to whom Jesus calls a prophet: Daniel

• The one 'seven' begins with a covenant.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now in all these - the one 'seven' begins with an agreement forged by the beast of a man, the ruler who will come.

The midpoint abomination happens before the Rapture - so the one 'seven began THREE AND A HALF YEARS PRIOR.

Likewise, the Result of that Rapture happens with the sixth Seal - so by THAT TIME - the one 'seven's covenant was made MORE THAN three and a half years prior.

In the detailed parallel account, the Rapture from the clouds happens after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation.

In ALL OF THESE - the one 'seven' has already started BEFORE the Rapture.

ONLY in your head, do you have a statement which is at odds with actual prophecy.

So for this reason, your testimony - which does not conform to Scripture - must be discounted, and rejected.

Don't believe everything you think - or think you hear...

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, that we would see these events come in this order (Mt 24:15-31)

• The (midpoint) abomination (of Daniel 9:27)
• The Great Tribulation
• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• The Gathering of the Elect (rapture).

He did not directly say WE. The generation that begins to see these things would be the WE.

The gathering in this discourse is not the rapture.

Ch 14: Jesus on the earth with the 144,000.  I think Jesus is in heaven with the 144.000, personally

The midpoint abomination happens before the Rapture  This is an assumption that I don't think is true. Neither do I think you can prove it with scripture.

so the one 'seven began THREE AND A HALF YEARS PRIOR.

Likewise, the Result of that Rapture happens with the sixth Seal - so by THAT TIME - the one 'seven's covenant was made MORE THAN three and a half years prior.  Wow. Not sure I can follow your logic here. I agree the seven years will begin 3 1/2 years before the midpoint (the 7th trumpet). "The result of the rapture?" I see the results in chapter 7 when John saw the large crowd around the throne in heaven. I see the rapture a moment before the 6th seal.  "By that time" what time? the sixth seal time? You see, when you said the midpoint abomination happens before the rapture, that is where your theory fell. The rapture comes at the 6th seal which will come 3 1/2 years before the midpoint.

In the detailed parallel account, the Rapture from the clouds happens after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation.

I cannot follow your logic at all here. What detailed account? Perhaps you are thinking that the "gathering of the elect" is the rapture?  Perhaps that might explain why I don't agree with anything here.

In ALL OF THESE - the one 'seven' has already started BEFORE the Rapture.  NO! The truth is, the rapture comes before the 7 years. Do you know where the 7 years really starts in Revelation? It is at the 7th seal. The rapture comes just before the 6th seal, so clearly before the "one seven" as you like to say.

So for this reason, your testimony - which does not conform to Scripture - must be discounted, and rejected.

Sorry, but your facts are in error, so you reasoning is in error.

Please, if you think I missed it, find what I said that the Lord said, and then find a scripture that refutes it. Since you think I missed it, it should be easy.

Or, take any of the points above where I disagreed with you, and we can discuss them one by one.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, that we would see these events come in this order (Mt 24:15-31)

• The (midpoint) abomination (of Daniel 9:27)
• The Great Tribulation
• The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets.
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• The Gathering of the Elect (rapture).

He did not directly say WE. The generation that begins to see these things would be the WE.

When Matthew wrote this in the 50's, the Jewish Apostles in Jerusalem had learned that they were not the sole recipients of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit was also poured out upon Gentiles.

Which, I think, is the whole reason that we see the transition from Jew/Gentile from the OT to "Elect" in the NT.

When the NT speaks of the "Elect" as a people, or when addressing someone (as a person) as being "Elect" - Scripture is uniform in the NT as designating these people as God's Chosen people regardless of the previous delineation of Jew or Gentile.  We truly have surpassed that separation in Christ Jesus.

When Matthew writes "Elect" in the Greek for what Jesus said in the Aramaic: he is designating US.

"WE" is in "Elect."  WE ARE the "Elect".

_________________________________________________________

.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The gathering in this discourse is not the rapture.

Pre-Trib demands that this gathering of US is not the Rapture.

This statement of yours is a matter of conclusion, of fidelity to an eschatology; rather than a true statement of fact.

It is a matter of circular logic: Since Pre-Trib presumes the Rapture happens before the one 'seven' (which they mistakenly call the "Trib") any verse which indicates that it happens during the one 'seven' ("Trib") CANNOT be the Rapture... and round and round we go.

[enoob57]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:08 PM, Lawlord said:

Have you watched the video? Have you read the Word of God I present on this topic? No matter what you say, or no matter what the comfortable beliefs of others are, it concerns me not. I am only concerned by what the Word of God tells us. The pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely a false teaching. It is a teaching of man. I will not be editing the title. This belief is not borne out by the Word of God. I have shown the Word of God that proves the saints will suffer on earth during the tribulation. This is not overcomeable unless by twisting and distortion of God's Word. Thus the pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely a false and inaccurate teaching. This damaging teaching will contribute to the great falling away in believers. 

When believers who haven't prepared themselves with the Word of God go into the end times, and they aren't taken from the earth, how are they going to feel? When they are forced to take the mark of the beast or choose death, how does the pre-tribulation rapture false belief help them choose between God and their lives? When they are in suffering and difficulty, but thought they would never experience these times, are they going to be able to stand in their faith? The pre-trib rapture is a damaging teaching of man, that will contribute to the falling away and apostasy of the church. We are told the church is in need of repentance, is lukewarm, has the reputation of being alive but is dead, have fallen away from their first love (God), why do you think Jesus says this? If you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, please tell me, how are you going to feel if you aren't taken from the earth before the tribulation/end times? Will you be angry at God for not taking you away? Will you blame God for not honoring His Word? 

That's why this teaching is damaging and it is absolutely a false-teaching, and I won't be going back from my statement. My interpretations are based on the Word of God. You can view my 12 minute video and all scripture is referenced on screen. If you want to convince me to stop labeling it a false-teaching, then you can tell me why the Word of God is wrong, and you can tell me why saints will NOT be on the earth during the tribulation, despite what the Bible tells us. 

You are welcome to believe what you want. I have displayed my interpretations of the Word of God clearly in my video. I do not mince words on this topic. I am not attacking your belief in God. If you believe in Christ you are my brother and sister. I want the brethren to be prepared for these end times, which I feel are almost upon us. I want the brethren to be strong and prepared to suffer, and stand in their faith. I don't want the brethren to fall away from faith. I believe the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is false, and will be a strong contributor to the falling away in the church. Again, you are welcome to disagree and have your own opinions, but unless you can overcome the Word of God I have displayed, I will not be amending the title of this thread, nor my video title, nor my belief that the pre-trib rapture is a false teaching. Thanks for your post. 

 

 

The whole premise of this post is to prepare or you will fall away... foolishness! It is God who keep us from falling whether we go through the great tribulation or not!

Persecution has always been here:
Matthew 13:20 (KJV)

[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

and again

Matthew 10:24 (KJV)

[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

[25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

[26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

[27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

All who have been born from above endure to the end

Jude 24 (KJV)

[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I suggest you rethink your whole premise here!  Love, Steven

 

 

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

When Matthew wrote this in the 50's, the Jewish Apostles in Jerusalem had learned that they were not the sole recipients of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit was also poured out upon Gentiles.

Which, I think, is the whole reason that we see the transition from Jew/Gentile from the OT to "Elect" in the NT.

When the NT speaks of the "Elect" as a people, or when addressing someone (as a person) as being "Elect" - Scripture is uniform in the NT as designating these people as God's Chosen people regardless of the previous delineation of Jew or Gentile.  We truly have surpassed that separation in Christ Jesus.

When Matthew writes "Elect" in the Greek for what Jesus said in the Aramaic: he is designating US.

"WE" is in "Elect."  WE ARE the "Elect".

_________________________________________________________

.

Pre-Trib demands that this gathering of US is not the Rapture.

This statement of yours is a matter of conclusion, of fidelity to an eschatology; rather than a true statement of fact.

It is a matter of circular logic: Since Pre-Trib presumes the Rapture happens before the one 'seven' (which they mistakenly call the "Trib") any verse which indicates that it happens during the one 'seven' ("Trib") CANNOT be the Rapture... and round and round we go.

"Elect" as Christians in Matthew 24 sounds good on the surface, but Jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. The end of the Jewish age will be the 70th week of Daniel which is for the JEW, not for the Gentile. So the word "elect" fits the Jew in that setting.  When we put all three versions of the Olivet discourse together, there is really nothing there for the church. We don't go to synagogues. But, these scriptures match what John wrote about the 70th week of Daniel.

People have been trying to make the 'gathering" in the Olivet Discourse as the rapture  - ever since Paul wrote about the rapture. And when Paul wrote about it, he said it was a mystery. Up until he wrote, NO ONE KNEW that those alive and in Christ would be caught up.

Next, when you look close and see where those in the Olivet Discourse are gathered from, it does not fit Paul's rapture.

Hold your horses! Pretrib belivers certainly believe the rapture can be called the "gathering" for Paul also used that term. But pretrib knows there is no relationship between the Olivet Discourse gathering and Paul's gathering.

In fact, if we believe Rev. 19 as John wrote it - and I certainly do - posttribbers can find no way to get to heaven for the marriage and supper.  No posttribber has ever been able to solve this problem. Oh, they try! They move the marriage to earth or to the sky. Pretribbers don't by any rearranging of Revelation.

Next, in Paul's discourse of the rapture in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, the chronology is as follows:

1. Christ comes to the air

2. The dead in Christ rise

3. The dead in christ rising causes a massive world-wide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

4: those living IN CHRIST get salvation (get raptured) and get to live together with Him; while those living in darkness are left behind and suffer the earthquake. They cannot escape for it is world wide.

4. Paul reminds us that God will set NO APPOINTMENTS for us with His wrath.

Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the Day of the Lord. But study will prove it is the START of the Day of the Lord or the DAy of His wrath - the VERY wrath in which God sets no appointments for us. In Revelation that would place the rapture just one instant before the great earthquake of the 6th seal. Of course then, the great crowd seen around the throne in the next chapter of Revelation is the raptured church. And John tells us that this great earthquake with the signs in the sun and moon are indeed the start of the Day of His wrath.

You see, pretrib really does fit the scriptures better than any other theory. And it fits the character of God.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I said:

Quote

Ch 14: Jesus on the earth with the 144,000.

This comes from:

The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion - Rev 14:1-15:
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think Jesus is in heaven with the 144.000, personally

Again, personal belief is fine.  You can believe anything you like.

Just don't tell me what you believe is the truth, when it conflicts with Scripture.

I would also reference the prophet Isaiah who said this as being akin to the 144,000 

  ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.

  ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--
those who rejoice in my triumph.

  ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!

  The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war.

  ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens--
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath--
to destroy the whole country.

  ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13 is married by Isaiah’s parallel account in 5:26. 

  ISA 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations,
he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
  Here they come,
   swiftly and speedily!

I don't think as you do.

I think the first fruits of the Harvest are of the same type as we: the Elect.