"All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"Elect" as Christians in Matthew 24 sounds good on the surface, but Jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. The end of the Jewish age will be the 70th week of Daniel which is for the JEW, not for the Gentile. So the word "elect" fits the Jew in that setting.  

So in this one case, against all the other uses of "Elect" in the NT - it means something else than what it means everywhere else because if it does mean us, it spoils the whole eschatology of "Pre-Trib".

And to believe this, you must accept the premise that Daniel is ONLY Jewish, and not part of the "Elect" who will be selected by God to be raised on the "Last Day" with the Saints.

However, Daniel is no mere Jew that the seventy 'sevens' are only for the Jews.

[iamlamad]

On 1/26/2017 at 8:08 PM, Lawlord said:

Have you watched the video? Have you read the Word of God I present on this topic? No matter what you say, or no matter what the comfortable beliefs of others are, it concerns me not. I am only concerned by what the Word of God tells us. The pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely a false teaching. It is a teaching of man. I will not be editing the title. This belief is not borne out by the Word of God. I have shown the Word of God that proves the saints will suffer on earth during the tribulation. This is not overcomeable unless by twisting and distortion of God's Word. Thus the pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely a false and inaccurate teaching. This damaging teaching will contribute to the great falling away in believers. 

When believers who haven't prepared themselves with the Word of God go into the end times, and they aren't taken from the earth, how are they going to feel? When they are forced to take the mark of the beast or choose death, how does the pre-tribulation rapture false belief help them choose between God and their lives? When they are in suffering and difficulty, but thought they would never experience these times, are they going to be able to stand in their faith? The pre-trib rapture is a damaging teaching of man, that will contribute to the falling away and apostasy of the church. We are told the church is in need of repentance, is lukewarm, has the reputation of being alive but is dead, have fallen away from their first love (God), why do you think Jesus says this? If you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, please tell me, how are you going to feel if you aren't taken from the earth before the tribulation/end times? Will you be angry at God for not taking you away? Will you blame God for not honoring His Word? 

That's why this teaching is damaging and it is absolutely a false-teaching, and I won't be going back from my statement. My interpretations are based on the Word of God. You can view my 12 minute video and all scripture is referenced on screen. If you want to convince me to stop labeling it a false-teaching, then you can tell me why the Word of God is wrong, and you can tell me why saints will NOT be on the earth during the tribulation, despite what the Bible tells us. 

You are welcome to believe what you want. I have displayed my interpretations of the Word of God clearly in my video. I do not mince words on this topic. I am not attacking your belief in God. If you believe in Christ you are my brother and sister. I want the brethren to be prepared for these end times, which I feel are almost upon us. I want the brethren to be strong and prepared to suffer, and stand in their faith. I don't want the brethren to fall away from faith. I believe the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is false, and will be a strong contributor to the falling away in the church. Again, you are welcome to disagree and have your own opinions, but unless you can overcome the Word of God I have displayed, I will not be amending the title of this thread, nor my video title, nor my belief that the pre-trib rapture is a false teaching. Thanks for your post.

" The pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely a false teaching. "  Please allow me to correct this statement:

"I cannot find the pre-tribulation rapture anywhere in scripture." There. This is much closer to truth. Try it next time you wish to knock a belief that really is scriptural.

I can guess then your belief is a postrib rapture? In fact and in truth, just ONE PASSAGE destroys a posttrib rapture belief. The truth is, posttribbers have never solved this one problem: HOW to get those "in Christ" to the marriage, which will take place in heaven BEFORE Christ comes to the earth. Oh, I know they TRY, but moving the marriage to the air or to the earth. But is this the intent of the Author?

You imagine that pretrib is a dangerous teaching - that people will not be ready for what is coming. What if you have it backwards? What if teaching people that His coming will not be until AFTER the 70th week causes people to be LEFT BEHIND? If that is the case, then your teaching would be worse than pretrib teaching. How many times do we find the word "watch?" Jesus will be coming pretrib for those who are watching and expecting Him. I fear for those like yourself that will not be watching or Expection. In my mind, you are setting your own appointment with His wrath.

How much better to just believe in Luk. 21:36 and pray to escape what is coming! Escaping is far better than setting your own appointment.

Edited June 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[Marcus O'Reillius]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"Elect" as Christians in Matthew 24 sounds good on the surface, but Jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age.

Furthermore: Jesus was talking to the Apostles: the nexus of the Church - the Elect.

Jesus is answering their question, not as to when the Temple would be torn down (figuratively speaking of His body the next day, or literally speaking of the Temple in nearly four decades) - but when He would Return.

Neither is the Olivet Discourse is in isolation.

Jesus had just told them in John 14:3 that when He Returns:

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

We have reason to conclude that the gathering of the Church as the Elect will happen in verse Mt 24:31.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So in this one case, against all the other uses of "Elect" in the NT - it means something else than what it means everywhere else because if it does mean us, it spoils the whole eschatology of "Pre-Trib".

And to believe this, you must accept the premise that Daniel is ONLY Jewish, and not part of the "Elect" who will be selected by God to be raised on the "Last Day" with the Saints.

However, Daniel is no mere Jew that the seventy 'sevens' are only for the Jews.

It seems like you are just rambling here. What if, when the pretrib rapture comes, the church age ENDS and suddenly the world is in "Day of the Lord" and "70th week" time. Believers will have been removed from the earth, so only Jew (Hebrews) and unsaved Gentiles are left. In this scenario, how does your word "elect" for believers fit? We already know, 1/3 of the Jews will make it through. Wouldn't they be called the "elect?" 

[iamlamad]

24 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Furthermore: Jesus was talking to the Apostles: the nexus of the Church - the Elect.

Jesus is answering their question, not as to when the Temple would be torn down (figuratively speaking of His body the next day, or literally speaking of the Temple in nearly four decades) - but when He would Return.

Neither is the Olivet Discourse is in isolation.

Jesus had just told them in John 14:3 that when He Returns:

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

We have reason to conclude that the gathering of the Church as the Elect will happen in verse Mt 24:31.

I am glad you brought this verse up. WHERE did Jesus go to prepare a place? Of course, to heaven. So it makes sense that is where He would take us - to those prepared homes. Where will Jesus be during the 70th week? Of course even posttribbers know He will be in heaven. So the pretrib thought is that He will be PRETRIB and take us to where He is: heaven.

Did you not notice that somewhere in Acts a change came about -  where God sent Paul to the Gentiles? All the rest of the disciples stayed with the Jews until they were martyred. The Jewish church died out. It ended. The Gentile church took over. Even today a very small percent of the church came from the Jews. Thank God there are some, for Salvation started with them.

Of course God, knowing all things, new that the end of the Jewish age they were living in would the the 70th week of Daniel. The Olivet discourse takes the Jews from that time right through the 70th week to the end. It is not pointed to the Gentile church at all.

Edited June 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I said:

This comes from:

The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion - Rev 14:1-15:
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

 

Again, personal belief is fine.  You can believe anything you like.

Just don't tell me what you believe is the truth, when it conflicts with Scripture.

I would also reference the prophet Isaiah who said this as being akin to the 144,000 

  ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.

  ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--
those who rejoice in my triumph.

  ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!

  The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war.

  ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens--
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath--
to destroy the whole country.

  ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13 is married by Isaiah’s parallel account in 5:26. 

  ISA 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations,
he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
  Here they come,
   swiftly and speedily!

I don't think as you do.

I think the first fruits of the Harvest are of the same type as we: the Elect.

You can believe those verses in Isaiah refer to the 144,000 if you choose. I don't think as you do.  They will be the firstfruits of the JEWS.

 

By the way, WHERE are the four beasts and 24 elders?

Edited June 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[Daniel 11:36]

Those of Israel of the coming 70th week decreed will be called the "elect" beginning with the 144000 in Revelation 7:1-8 and Revelation 14:1-7

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Daniel 11:36 said:

Those of Israel of the coming 70th week decreed will be called the "elect" beginning with the 144000 in Revelation 7:1-8 and Revelation 14:1-7

I agree. And when the day comes - probably after the 70th week has finished - that God will fulfill His word; He will gather all the Jews and Hebrews from heaven and earth and bring them to Israel for the start of the Millennial Reign of Christ. This is, without much doubt, the gathering in Matthew 24. It has nothing to do with the Church, the body of Christ on earth.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It seems like you are just rambling here. 

We have a difference of opinion there too.

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What if, when the pretrib rapture comes, 

Well now you're starting your question off on your premise, which I have concluded after study, has no basis in Scripture.

I also notice it includes the preposition "if" - and so I have to play along with your a priori and foregone conclusion.

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

the church age ENDS and suddenly the world is in "Day of the Lord" and "70th week" time.

I would change your follow on to your faulty premise of a Pre-Trib Rapture that -

The Church Age ends ON the Day of the Lord.

And furthermore, the Day of the Lord, and its "Last Day" is not the last day of the one 'seven'.
____________________________

So restating your "what if" question - I will simply declare that the Rapture happens on the (first part of the) Day of the Lord in the second half of the one 'seven' at some unknown Day that only the Father knows.

And everything I just stated is in accordance with Scripture.

But I'm not going to play your "what if" game.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Believers will have been removed from the earth, so only Jew (Hebrews) and unsaved Gentiles are left. 

To quote Top Gun: "Negative Ghostrider."

That's your eschatology, not mine - nor is it consistent with the whole of end-time prophecy.

From the second of two twin parallel accounts in chapter 12:

Rev 12:16-17 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And from Rev chapters 13-16; the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' as appended to the broad overview of the Seals/Scroll account of Rev chapters 4-11:

Rev 13:7  It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...