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The Abomination of Desolation


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On 2/12/2017 at 10:58 PM, iamlamad said:

As I said, you can certainly hold to your theory, but it has been shown to be faulty over and over.  WHO were "the people of the Prince to come" that "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary?" Who were those people? (Verse 26) History tells us they were the Roman soldiers under Titus. 

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. "

Who sets up this abomination that will cause desolation?  (note: this is worded a little different that 9:20, but is much closer to the way Jesus said it. )

"Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) "

AGain, WHO sets up the abomination?

Daniel 11: 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Most experts believe this is about Antiochus Epiphanes. Notice that the wording is almost identical. We KNOW what He did: He placed (set up) an image of Zeus in the Holy of Holies.

 

Daniel 9: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

Now we have Jesus words, (the abomination of desolation) Daniel's words in chatper 12 (the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up) Daniel's words in chatper 11 (About Antiochus) (shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate) and finally, we get back to verse 27: (the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations).

Sister, are you really ready to tell us that the scripture in verse 27 had a DIFFERENT MEANING?

No, they all are saying the same thing! An abomination will enter (or be set up) in the Holy of Holies and that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease.

Are you ready to tell us that it is Jesus that sets this abomination up?

Shalom, iamlamad.

Whether Sister is or not, I'm ready. Verse 27 DOES have a different meaning than that of chapter 11 (Antichus Epiphanes IV) and that of chapter 12. Just because they use similar Hebrew words does NOT make them the same event! To the contrary, Yeshua` was talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

In a very GENERAL way, He WAS responsible by leaving them "desolate"; however, He was not the One at fault. THE JEWS of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) brought it upon themselves by THEIR abominations, and it was THEIR abominations that led to the devastation:

First, let's look at the words:

The Hebrew (transliterated into English) of Daniel 9:24-27 is...

Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa
v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt
uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:

25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:

Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible

24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations

m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint [the] Holy of Holies:

25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

The two important words are...

OT:8074 shaameem (shaw-mame'); a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):
KJV - make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish (-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate (-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

OT:8251 shiqquwts (shik-koots'); or shiqquts (shik-koots'); from OT:8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol:
KJV - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

That shiqquwts CAN mean "an idol" does NOT mean that it ALWAYS means "an idol." Furthermore, the word is in the plural (shiquwtsiym) meaning three or more! (Hebrew also has the "dual" number as well as "singular" and "plural.") Another word that's spelled the same way in Hebrew as OT:8074 is...

OT:8076 shaameem (shaw-mame'); from OT:8074; ruined:
KJV - desolate.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, it can also mean "he shall ruin it!"

And, here's what Yeshua` said recorded three ways in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21:

Matthew 24:9-16
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and (a) ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 (b) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see (c) the abomination of desolation (Greek: ereemooseoos), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 (d) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV

Mark 13:13-14
13 (a) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: (b) but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see (c) the abomination of desolation (Greek: ereemooseoos), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) (d) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Luke 21:17-21
17 (a) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 (b) In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And (c) when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation (Greek: ereemoosis) thereof is nigh.
21 (d) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

Notice that Luke's account spells out that (c) Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) would be surrounded by armies and that it's ruin would be imminent!

And, the word translated as "desolation" in each passage is...

NT:2050 ereemoosis (er-ay'-mo-sis); from NT:2049; despoliation:
KJV - desolation.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One does NOT have to fall prey to the opinion that an idol has to be set up in the Temple, any more than one has to understand this to be some future event!

Ever hear, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it?" Well, in prophecy, it should be worded, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that a prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future." Yeshua`s prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled when Yerushalayim was surrounded and the Temple was burned.

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Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "Shalom, Bible2": ----- Shalom. ---------- Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "There is such a thing as a law of double reference": ----- Note that a verse can include two different meanings at the same time. For example, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Exodus 4:22) and its Exodus from Egypt. Also, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b foretold an event in Jesus' life (Matthew 2:14-15,19-21). ---------- Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "The Temple is already destroyed to the point that 'not one stone [is] left upon another'": ----- Note that the end of the second Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD did not fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the second temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 was not referring only to the single, second temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine). ---------- Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "The Greek words 'en too ouranoo' mean 'in the skyi or in the atmosphere of this planet": ----- Note that there are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12). ---------- In the third heaven, there is currently a literal city fifteen hundred miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth. ---------- Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem. ---------- The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Edited by Bible2
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Regarding n2thelight's comment: "satan will sit on the throne himself": ----- Revelation 13:2b refers to when Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamos (Revelation 2:12-13), also called Pergamum (in what is now western Turkey). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world. ---------- It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times. ---------- Regarding n2thelight's comment: "Satan appears as Antichrist": ----- Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) is not the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over a thousand years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

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Retrobyter wrote,

Ever hear, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it?" Well, in prophecy, it should be worded, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that a prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future." Yeshua`s prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled when Yerushalayim was surrounded and the Temple was burned.

NOT! Jesus was speaking of the end of the age.

I hope you know, no one has ever been able to tell us when each of the trumpet judgments took place.  I doubt if you can either. They are FUTURE. This is not a bad word.

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Retrobyter wrote,

Ever hear, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it?" Well, in prophecy, it should be worded, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that a prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future." Yeshua`s prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled when Yerushalayim was surrounded and the Temple was burned.

NOT! Jesus was speaking of the end of the age.

I hope you know, no one has ever been able to tell us when each of the trumpet judgments took place.  I doubt if you can either. They are FUTURE. This is not a bad word.

Shalom, iamlamad.

One prophecy at a time, please. You can't just go mixing prophecies just because you want to! They have to be REALLY about the same thing to be complementary.

Yeshua`s prophecy in Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have portions that were in our future, too, but most of it was directed to His immediate future in and around 70 A.D. All the "NOT's" in the world aren't going to change that fact. Much of what He had to say to His students AT THAT TIME were about what they and their loved ones would shortly face!

To know which is which, simply look for the occurrences of "you" and "your" and "yours." In Greek, this would be the words "humin" and "humoon" (where "oo" represents an omega). Also, in the Greek, one should look for verbs ending in "-te" (tau-epsilon) or "-the" (theta-epsilon), the plural, second-person ending. When the second-person (plural) is used, He is talking directly to His students sitting around Him on Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) that day. When His vision veers off into the distant future, He will no longer use those words.

Regarding the trumpet judgments, I believe those are yet in our future. I am NOT a "preterist!"

His students' questions were about the future. Yeshua` gave them information about the near future - their PERSONAL future - as well as the distant future.

Please don't try to "pigeon-hole" me. Unless you've been following along with what I write, you won't be able to do it.

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17 hours ago, Bible2 said:

Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "Shalom, Bible2": ----- Shalom. ---------- Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "There is such a thing as a law of double reference": ----- Note that a verse can include two different meanings at the same time. For example, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Exodus 4:22) and its Exodus from Egypt. Also, the "son" in Hosea 11:1b foretold an event in Jesus' life (Matthew 2:14-15,19-21). ----------

Shalom, again, Bible2.

This example of Hoshea's prophecy is NOT an exception to the law of double reference. First of all, it's an error to think that Israel the child is the same as God's Son. The words in Hebrew are ...

"Kiy na`ar Yisraa'eel vaa'ohaVeehuw Uwmi-Mitsrayim qaaraa'tiy liVniy:"

Kiy = When
na`ar = a-child [was]
Yisraa'eel = Israel
vaa'ohaVeehuw = and-I-loved-him
Uwmi-Mitsrayim = And-from-Egypt
qaaraa'tiy = I-called
liVniy: = to-my-Son:

It's an ASSUMPTION to think that God was referring to Israel as His son!

Second, one must not forget the Hebrew way of thinking:

Hebrews 7:1-10
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
KJV

There is a LINKAGE through the genetic structure of father-son in how all the DNA for a son is to be found in the parents. This is why family is so important to the children of Israel and why they prize their heritage and the ability to list their ancestors!

Thus, all the DNA for Yeshua` the Messiah was to be found in Yisraa'eel.

17 hours ago, Bible2 said:

Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "The Temple is already destroyed to the point that 'not one stone [is] left upon another'": ----- Note that the end of the second Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD did not fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the second temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 was not referring only to the single, second temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine). ---------- Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

I should like to point out to you your own words, "one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount." It was up on TOP of the Western Wall where the "ground" for the Temple existed, where the walkway across Wilson's Arch along the bridge was located! The whole Western Wall is BELOW the level where the Temple stood! Don't you yet understand? The Western Wall was (and still is) a RETENTION WALL! It's not part of the "buildings"; it's merely a SUPPORT for the buildings!

Now, more importantly, do you know WHY "not one stone was left upon another?" Look up that interesting piece of history, and you will see why Yeshua` was talking about the Temple, not the whole city.

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On 2/15/2017 at 9:46 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Satan is the "god" of this present world and he will not engage in the details, but will orchestrate them [Revelation 13:1-4]

The beast that he brings out of the abyss will do his bidding [2 Thessalonians 3-12]

Neither is the two horned false prophet who will manifest in the second beast from the abyss

This manifestation in two clerical models will cause the worship of the first beast

Satan will cause this drama and then after the first and second beast are killed by the Lord, he will be sent to the abyss for 1000 years [Revelation 19:19-21; 20:1-3]

Learn the scriptures for understanding 

It is interesting to note that the False Prophet cannot do miracles UNLESS he is in close proximity to the Beast. This tells me that Satan will have possessed the Beast.

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On 2/16/2017 at 10:29 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

One prophecy at a time, please. You can't just go mixing prophecies just because you want to! They have to be REALLY about the same thing to be complementary.

Yeshua`s prophecy in Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have portions that were in our future, too, but most of it was directed to His immediate future in and around 70 A.D. All the "NOT's" in the world aren't going to change that fact. Much of what He had to say to His students AT THAT TIME were about what they and their loved ones would shortly face!

To know which is which, simply look for the occurrences of "you" and "your" and "yours." In Greek, this would be the words "humin" and "humoon" (where "oo" represents an omega). Also, in the Greek, one should look for verbs ending in "-te" (tau-epsilon) or "-the" (theta-epsilon), the plural, second-person ending. When the second-person (plural) is used, He is talking directly to His students sitting around Him on Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) that day. When His vision veers off into the distant future, He will no longer use those words.

Regarding the trumpet judgments, I believe those are yet in our future. I am NOT a "preterist!"

His students' questions were about the future. Yeshua` gave them information about the near future - their PERSONAL future - as well as the distant future.

Please don't try to "pigeon-hole" me. Unless you've been following along with what I write, you won't be able to do it.

I was not trying to pigeon-hole you. Let's take a look:

Matthew 24: Tell us, when shall these things be?  (The temple being destroyed)

...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus spent many verses in this portion of His narrative.

This portion of His narrative was and is about church history: In some ways it parallels the first 5 seals that are also church age:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Verse 13 is the first mention of "the end." From verse 15 on, Jesus is talking about the end of the age:


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

:-)  I am happy to know, you are not a preterist.

" most of it was directed to His immediate future in and around 70 A.D"

I still disagree.

 

By the way, that was a great bible study you did! Thanks.

Notice that Luke's account spells out that (c) Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) would be surrounded by armies and that it's ruin would be imminent!

It is VERY possible that when Luke mentions armies surrounding Jerusalem, that that also is FUTURE prophecy, and just happened (on purpose) to fit what happened in 70 AD, thereby causing the Christians to escape the city. For the most part, all the gospels say about the same thing for the Olivet Discourse except for that portion in Luke.

God has said He will bring the nations of the world Against Israel and Jerusalem. Nathan, the 15 year old boy in Israel that went to heaven for a short time, and saw the end of this age while there, said there were 70 nations that came against Israel. I am convinced, the city will be taken again and burned, as is written. But Christ will touch down and make a way of escape for the Jews captured there.

One does NOT have to fall prey to the opinion that an idol has to be set up in the Temple, any more than one has to understand this to be some future event!

Hmmm. Yet, this is exactly what Paul tells us! The man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and declare he is God!  That will be an abomination. And that will STOP the daily Sacrifices. Since they have not been started yet, since 70 AD, we should conclude this is FUTURE.

Edited by iamlamad
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