The Abomination of Desolation

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Right I take it they were also collected there by angels and demons?

They occupy the spiritual realm that's all around us.  Some people just take things way out of line.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is myth according to Paul, who tells us when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.

Funny.  Paul is the one who interjected the whole notion of layers of Heaven to begin with - AND HE is the one who said the Dead in Christ must be "called" by the Last Trumpet to be with Christ.

So the question is: why did Paul teach babes in faith a very simple life lesson rather than try to teach them eschatology like he did at first with the Thessalonians.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is myth according to Paul, who tells us when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord. We will NEVER be "without knowing" for our spirit and soul are eternal.  We now have hundreds of personal testimonies of people who have died and gone to heaven, but got prayed back to their body.  In some cases Jesus tells them, "someone is praying for you: you have to go back." I know a man that died four times within a few minutes time. The first three times he went DOWN into the earth, to the very gates of hell. Yes, he saw the gate. But a voice called him back. On the third time, he knew it would be his last so he began repenting, and immediately went back to his body. The fourth time he left his body, he started up towards heaven, and again a voice spoke, but this time he understood it. God said, "Go back! Go back! Your work on earth is not finished yet." And for the 4th time he went back into his body. He lived to be 86 I believe before he finally died.

Finally, the story of the rich man and Lazarus should end such myths forever. They certainly KNEW.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Don't be taken in by all these stories of people coming back from the dead.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

The author of Hebrews did NOT say, "men die as many times as is necessary to get it right!"

In chapter 35 of 50 Things You Need To Know About Heaven by Dr. John Hart (copyright 2014 by Baker Publishing Group, Grand Rapids, MI), "Are the stories true about people going to heaven and returning? Are the stories of near-death experiences true? Have people come back from heaven?," Dr. Hart said,

Quote

"A simple search of the Internet will uncover numerous books in which a person claims to have died and gone to heaven. In these near-death experiences (NDEs), people often claim to have been lifted out of their bodies, to have seen stunning, beautiful light brighter than the sun, and to have met large groups of transparent, shimmering beings. But search results of the Internet will also find the opposite experiences. For example, I found one book in which the author claims he died and went to hell, only to be brought back to life to serve God. Another book claims that numerous people who have reported NDEs have recanted their testimony after scrutiny. How can we know who's telling the truth? How can we know if these experiences are real?
We must remember that all such experiences are not actually experiences of the afterlife but resuscitations before the finality of death. Who has been pronounced dead by official sources, laid dead for a week, then come back to life to tell about it?"

They may spin magnificent yarns about their experiences, but they may just as easily have experienced a dream (or a nightmare) while they were unconscious before they were successfully resuscitated. Trust the Scriptures ONLY!

Furthermore, the account of the rich man and Lazarus was about the RESURRECTION, not "heaven" and "hell!"

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But NOT ALWAYS:

Mat 22:26   Likewise the second also, and the third, G5154 unto the seventh.

So the third heaven could (and probably is) just as Ezra wrote it: third in sequence.

Shalom, iamlamad.

That's what I said! It is the third "heaven" ("sky") in chronological sequence!

[Retrobyter]

On 3/1/2017 at 7:17 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Alternately, the First Heaven - another realm of space and time - is Paradise, where the Dead in Christ await without knowing.

The Second Heaven is under the Altar in the Temple of God the Father in the Third Heaven where the Martyrs wait impatiently.

And the Third Heaven is being in the Presence of God the Father, which we cannot attain until either the Day of the Lord for the Dead in Christ or after the one 'seven' for the Martyrs.

Shalom, Marcus.

Got it all mapped out, eh? Show me the Greek word for "up" in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

You know, it's translated as ...

2 Corinthians 12:1-4
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

... in the King James Version.

See, you're claiming that Paul (or whoever it was) was taken upward to this "third heaven"; so, you should be able to show that he was taken in that direction.

And, while you're at it, show me where the Bible says that the "first heaven" was "paradise."

Then, show me where the Bible says that the "second heaven" is "under the Altar." 

And, to complete the set, you might as well show me where the Bible says, "the Third Heaven is being in the Presence of God the Father."

Edited March 5, 2017 by Retrobyter

[Sister]

Quote

 

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch.

1st Heaven

3:1        It came to pass, when Enoch had told his sons, that the angels took him on to their wings and bore him on to the FIRST HEAVEN and placed him on the clouds.  And there I looked and again I looked higher, and saw the ether, and they placed me on the first heaven and showed me a very great Sea, greater than the earthly sea  (end of chapter)

 Compare now with;

Testament of Levi

1st Heaven

1:10      And I entered from the first heaven, and I saw there a great sea hanging.

 

Sea = holy spirit.  Enoch and Levi were first shown the holy spirit.

who sail = those who are in the holy spirit.  The angels come to those who sail in that sea of the holy spirit.

 

 

If you read this before, I was looking into this again last night and need to state for the record that I was wrong in this interpretation.  This great sea does not represent the holy spirit.  What was I thinking!  I am still learning and trying to understand.

When Enoch was taken up to the first heaven, he was taken up on to the clouds, and he looked up and saw a great sea, greater than the earth's sea.  Levi saw a great sea hanging also.  So this great sea they both saw was above the clouds.

What they saw was not "spiritual", but a real sea.

When God divided the waters in the beginning.

Genesis 1:6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

  Genesis 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

  Genesis 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 

Picture the earth full of water.  God separated the waters.  He made the waters go down, and the waters go up to create the space in between. He made the waters form the sea below, and the rest of the waters he took up and hung under the canopy of the earth.  It's hard to imagine, but there is more water above, than below.  That is what they saw.  This is not in our text books.

 

I messed up my original post in this somehow and lost it all accidently, so it's gone now.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Got it all mapped out, eh? Show me the Greek word for "up" in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

Got it all defined Retro?

Why can't anyone enter the Temple in Heaven while the Bowl Judgments are administered?

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

 

If you read this before, I was looking into this again last night and need to state for the record that I was wrong in this interpretation.  This great sea does not represent the holy spirit.  What was I thinking!  I am still learning and trying to understand.

When Enoch was taken up to the first heaven, he was taken up on to the clouds, and he looked up and saw a great sea, greater than the earth's sea.  Levi saw a great sea hanging also.  So this great sea they both saw was above the clouds.

What they saw was not "spiritual", but a real sea.

When God divided the waters in the beginning.

Genesis 1:6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

  Genesis 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

  Genesis 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 

Picture the earth full of water.  God separated the waters.  He made the waters go down, and the waters go up to create the space in between. He made the waters form the sea below, and the rest of the waters he took up and hung under the canopy of the earth.  It's hard to imagine, but there is more water above, than below.  That is what they saw.  This is not in our text books.

 

I messed up my original post in this somehow and lost it all accidently, so it's gone now.

Shalom, Sister.

It's not in our textbooks because it no longer exists. First of all, it was an ocean above made of water VAPOR! Gaseous water that had no condensation at all. Thus, it would have been invisible to the light shining through it from the sun, moon, and stars.

Second, this ocean above the atmosphere was the source of the rain for forty days and forty nights during Noach's time, which contributed to the Flood.

Look, before the Flood, the atmosphere's gases were sandwiched between the seas below the atmosphere and the ocean of water vapor above the atmosphere. There was no rain during that time and there were no clouds (except for the mist that rose from the ground during the early morning hours).

AFTER the Flood, the ocean of water vapor had condensed and fallen to earth as rain, starting the current water cycle. The gases of the atmosphere were no longer restricted by the ocean of water vapor above and expanded as far as they could under normal wind and gravitation restrictions to where they exist today. Now, our atmosphere looks like this:

(From NASA's website, Atmosphere-layers2.)

The higher the atmosphere, the more rarified the gases within that height. Finally, at the highest reaches of the exosphere, we have virtually no molecules of atmospheric gases at all.

Practically all of our water molecules are now at ground to cloud height, from the lowest point in earth's oceans to the highest cirrus ice clouds. There is no longer a water vapor canopy.

Therefore, both pseudo-Enoch and pseudo-Levi are wrong. And, this fact should give us pause for accepting ANY of their writings as "gospel truth!" The Book of Enoch is non-canonical FOR A REASON! It is NOT part of the Holy Scriptures and should not be given the same credence as the Holy Bible.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Got it all defined Retro?

Why can't anyone enter the Temple in Heaven while the Bowl Judgments are administered?

Shalom, Marcus.

For the same reason they couldn't enter the Tabernacle or the Temple at certain times:

Exodus 40:34-38
34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
36 And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:
37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up.
38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.
KJV

2 Chronicles 7:1-3
1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the Lord's house.
3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.
KJV

It was the WEIGHT OF HIS GLORY - KaVowd!

So, when we read,

Revelation 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
KJV

... it's the same scenario!

[Serving]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

 

If you read this before, I was looking into this again last night and need to state for the record that I was wrong in this interpretation.  This great sea does not represent the holy spirit.  What was I thinking!  I am still learning and trying to understand.

When Enoch was taken up to the first heaven, he was taken up on to the clouds, and he looked up and saw a great sea, greater than the earth's sea.  Levi saw a great sea hanging also.  So this great sea they both saw was above the clouds.

What they saw was not "spiritual", but a real sea.

When God divided the waters in the beginning.

Genesis 1:6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

  Genesis 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

  Genesis 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 

Picture the earth full of water.  God separated the waters.  He made the waters go down, and the waters go up to create the space in between. He made the waters form the sea below, and the rest of the waters he took up and hung under the canopy of the earth.  It's hard to imagine, but there is more water above, than below.  That is what they saw.  This is not in our text books.

 

I messed up my original post in this somehow and lost it all accidently, so it's gone now.

Glad you realised what you were saying before was just plain wrong (not so simple after all huh? Lol), I wondered what you were on about because there are literal waters above the waters as stated in Genesis.

3:1        It came to pass, when Enoch had told his sons, that the angels took him on to their wings and bore him on to the FIRST HEAVEN and placed him on the clouds.  And there I looked and again I looked higher, and saw the ether, and they placed me on the first heaven and showed me a very great Sea, greater than the earthly sea  (end of chapter)

Did you notice that Enoch was taken to TWO positions in that same passage?

First he was taken to the clouds, THEN he was taken AGAIN and placed "ON TOP OF" the first heaven to look DOWN at those clouds he was originally taken to (the great sea still ABOVE him). 

Did you notice the "ether" that Enoch was looking UP at FROM his position ON TOP OF the first heaven? The (a)ether is the old word for what we call space today (there is more to the ether than that but that is what it basically is) .. and the great sea is obviously ABOVE the ether.

These ARE physical things Enoch was describing btw, be careful not to spiritualize everything and throw out the literal too hastily .. very dangerous.

Blessings.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Serving

[Sister]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

It's not in our textbooks because it no longer exists. First of all, it was an ocean above made of water VAPOR! Gaseous water that had no condensation at all. Thus, it would have been invisible to the light shining through it from the sun, moon, and stars.

Second, this ocean above the atmosphere was the source of the rain for forty days and forty nights during Noach's time, which contributed to the Flood.

Look, before the Flood, the atmosphere's gases were sandwiched between the seas below the atmosphere and the ocean of water vapor above the atmosphere. There was no rain during that time and there were no clouds (except for the mist that rose from the ground during the early morning hours).

AFTER the Flood, the ocean of water vapor had condensed and fallen to earth as rain, starting the current water cycle. The gases of the atmosphere were no longer restricted by the ocean of water vapor above and expanded as far as they could under normal wind and gravitation restrictions to where they exist today. Now, our atmosphere looks like this:

(From NASA's website, Atmosphere-layers2.)

The higher the atmosphere, the more rarified the gases within that height. Finally, at the highest reaches of the exosphere, we have virtually no molecules of atmospheric gases at all.

Practically all of our water molecules are now at ground to cloud height, from the lowest point in earth's oceans to the highest cirrus ice clouds. There is no longer a water vapor canopy.

Therefore, both pseudo-Enoch and pseudo-Levi are wrong. And, this fact should give us pause for accepting ANY of their writings as "gospel truth!" The Book of Enoch is non-canonical FOR A REASON! It is NOT part of the Holy Scriptures and should not be given the same credence as the Holy Bible.

Hello Retrobyter

I considered the waters above that flooded the earth, but Levi was after the flood.

There is so much about our earth that man does not know about, and the ones that do know like to block us from the truth.

I find it hard to believe anything that comes out of NASA now.

God endorsed Enoch.  He was translated and taken up to heaven.  My spirit is more drawn to what Enoch says than NASA.  NASA is of the world.  The world is against God.  They don't want us to believe that God made earth special and unique, and they don't want us to know that they've been lying to us about many things.

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sister