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The Abomination of Desolation


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4 hours ago, Abdicate said:

You obviously misread what I wrote and since you're too touchy and unteachable about this, have a nice day.

I am neither touchy or unteachable! Why would you think this? Because I don't believe what you wrote? I did not misread: This is what you wrote: I copied and pasted so it is exact.

" The Two Witness preach 1260 days. When they are killed, 1260 days later Jesus returns. "

This is the reason I answered your post. I disagree with you here. They testify during the last half of the week, and finish their testimony just before the 7th vial ends the week. There is some little time after the 7th vial that Jesus returns. If I had to guess, I would guess 30 days after. But certainly NOT 1260 days later.

I know, many think that they testify in the first half of the week. Many are mistaken on that. I do have nice days, thanks.

 

 

 

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Abdicate wrote,

" The ministry of the Two Witnesses is 1260 days, after their death, Israel is to flee to Petra, per Jesus' own words, for 1260 days until His return to save them. "

I disagree. Here is why: from 11:4 to 11:13 is a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. For Chronology, 11:1-2 takes place, probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, as the man of sin with his Gentile (probably Muslim) armies with him. As soon as he shows up in Jerusalem, the two witnesses show up, just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.

then, 3 1/2 days after, the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god, and becomes an abomination that divides the week. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark that time.

Then, a second or two later, those in Judea begin to flee (12:6)

The two witnesses testify for 1260 days, which will take them right to 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, marked by the 7th vial.

They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and on the day of the 7th vial - probably the moment the vial is poured out, they rise from the dead, right along with all the other Old Testament saints.

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2 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Then you choose not to use logic but tradition. 

(Rev 11:3 [KJV])
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(Rev 11:11 [KJV])
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

(Matt 24:15-16 [KJV])
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

(Rev 12:6 [KJV])
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Two Witnesses 1260 preaching... killed, raised from the dead, Israel to flee to the wilderness and wait 1260 days. 1260 + 1260 = 2520 = 42 + 42 = 3.5 + 3.5 = 7 years, a one week covenant Dan 9:27. It's all very clear if you stick to the word of God. It all starts with the covenant and the arrival of the Two Witness who begin preaching.

I used neither logic nor tradition: I read the word, I meditate on it, and pray in the spirit until God answers.  You are still missing the intent of the author. There are five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time mentioned in Revelation (plus two more in Daniel.)

ALL FIVE of these are of events that will start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.  (NONE [not even 1] are of an event to begin at the start of the week and go to the midpoint.) In other words, all 5 run concurrently during the last half of the week.  However, the beginning is staggered slightly as to the moment they begin. They will all begin close to the midpoint of the week.

Question: do you imagine that 11:3 is 43 months after 11:2? Do you imagine that 12:7 is 1260 days after 12:6? Do you imagine that 13:6 is 42 months after 13:5? I would guess not. I have never heard of anyone that imagines such things. Most believe that the verse of mention is only the START of the count down to the end.  Why then would you imagine that the two witnesses countdown would take place in the place of mention? Those verses, 11:5 through 11:13 are a parenthesis. John is taking us down the last half of the week with only the two witnesses. That certainly does not mean the week ends in chapter 11! Nor does it mean they begin their testimony sometime earlier in the book. No, they SHOW UP and begin right where John first mentions them, which is 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week.

By the way: John does the very same think in chapter 13 with the two beasts: he takes us at least most of the way down the last half of the week AS A PARENTHESIS, showing us what the two Beasts will be doing in the last half of the week. But when we get to chapter 14, John is right back to the midpoint or a little after.  If we read carefully, we discover the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, and John showed the cause, will not begin until chapter 15, were we see beheaded people starting to show up in heaven.  The cause? John told us the Beast will erect an image and force people to worship it (think Nebuchadnezzar) or lose their head. He will do the same with his mark: accept it or lose the head.  However, people will already know from the angels in chapter 14 that to accept the mark will spell DOOM. So great pressure will be put on people to refuse the mark, and avoid losing their head.  At the same time, there will be no water to drink: water must be purchased: yet, without the mark, that will be impossible.

Just so you know, the first 1260 will begin at the 7th seal and go to the 7th trumpet. The two witnesses will start their testimony in this first 1260 days, but almost at the end: just 3 1/2 days before the abomination event.

I don't expect you to believe this, but it is truth anyway. Preconceived glasses prevent many from seeing truth. I wrote for the readers that might happen to be reading this thread.

 

(Rev 11:3 [KJV])
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
They will begin 3 1/2 days before the abomination and end 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. Believe it: it is TRUTH.

(Rev 11:11 [KJV])
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
This is at the END of their 1260 days, so just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. Did you notice, there is a huge earthquake when they rise - AND there is a huge earthquake at the 7th vial? IT IS THE SAME EARTHQUAKE!  This earthquake will be caused by God raising the Old Testament saints from their graves. Some will be from before the flood and their atoms or quarks may be scattered halfway around the world. But in one instant of time, God will bring that body together, and it will cause a great earthquake. These two witnesses will probably be Enoch and Elijah, the two men who never died. They will be resurrected at the same time all the Old Testament saints rise: at the 7th vial.

(Matt 24:15-16 [KJV])
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 
This abomination will be what divides the week into two halves - and will be marked by the 7th trumpet.

(Rev 12:6 [KJV])
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Probably two or three seconds (reaction time) after the abomination.

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1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

I'll stick to the word of God and not your "truth". Have a nice day.

What you really mean is, you will stick to your THEORY of what the word says. Everything I wrote came right out of the WORD.

When John saw the Lamb having been slain -  you don't believe that was Jesus Christ?

You don't believe John when He says that the Holy Spirit was immediately sent down?

Between which two verses do you add 2000 years that John somehow forgot to write?

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On 2/25/2017 at 8:23 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but "inchrist" is right. The words "was carried by the aggeloi into Avraham's haven" ARE the words that describe the process of Resurrection. That one can't see it that way is because of all the teaching and sermons one has heard about these verses (and the obstinance and tenacity to cling onto a particular viewpoint because of fear in the "unknown" and the reluctance to release one's grip and venture off into that "unknown"), and that's okay. I understand how that can be; I lived with it for some thirty-odd years myself. However, for Lazarus (Elezar) to be "carried" anywhere suggests SOLIDITY, not some disembodied spirit! How do you "bottle a wind?" How can the rich man "lift up his eyes," when his "eyes" are back in his BODY?! ("Just a minute; I've gotta go dig them up....")

(And as an aside note, this is how subtle our speech can be: the rich man doesn't "HAVE a body." He IS a body! What we say and how we say it can often influence what we believe.)

You accused me of "changing scripture to fit my theory," and then said, "Sorry, but I will not do that." Are you so sure you didn't?

The rich man "was buried" after he "died." His BODY was not buried; HE was! You're not suggesting that he didn't go to "hell" until AFTER he was buried, even though he was already dead, are you? And yet, THAT is the order that these Scriptures present here! Aren't you "changing scripture to fit your theory" to say that "[his body] was buried and in hell [his soul] lifted up his eyes?"

You're just not giving me a fair shake to listen carefully to the Scriptures. See, to allow oneself to fail is the first step to growth. When one sees that he or she may have made a mistake frees one to admit he or she may be wrong. It's that first "chink in the armor" that begins the process of softening the hard clay so it can be molded.

Oh, really? How did you arrive at such a lofty position to DICTATE when the 70th Seven begins? The 70th Seven began when Yeshua` was baptized and His offer of the Kingdom to Israel was first given 3.5 years before His death and resurrection. You've got to remember the six purposes for the 70 Sevens. The 70th Seven will conclude when He returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel again, this time being accepted out of sheer necessity! "If you won't save us now, there'll be no one left to save! Please, HELP!" (That's what "howshiy`aah naa'" or "hosanna" means, "Save us NOW!")

No, nothing of the sort. Did you not think to pay attention to the words of the Messiah in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

And what do we read in Revelation 6?

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

"The wrath of the Lamb?" How is it possible for them to know it's HIS wrath, if He has not returned? Are they just assuming this is true? OR, which is more likely, did they WATCH HIM COME?

Or, so you HOPE! However, it makes too much sense to ignore. So, it's nagging at the back of your mind, "Could it be?" And, the answer is, "Yes, it's true."

 

Of courses I am not changing the story. Is your body YOU? Yes. Is your spirit YOU? Yes. Is your soul (your mind) YOU? Of course!

So when it says "he" was buried, we know it was His body that was buried. how could anyone bury a spirit they cannot see? When someone dies, all that is left in the physical realm is the body. The spirit and soul LEAVE the body. When the spirit was IN the body, the person was in control. The moment the spirit leaves the body, God is in control of that spirit. In Lazarus' case, angels carried Him (His spirit with His soul) to Abraham's bosom. Who ever said spirit's cannot be carried? Angels are continually escorting human spirits to heaven, and demonic spirits are dragging human spirits to hell.

"The wrath of the Lamb?" How is it possible for them to know it's HIS wrath, if He has not returned? Are they just assuming this is true? OR, which is more likely, did they WATCH HIM COME?

Oh my! Go and read Joel 2 and Isaiah 2. They knew because of Isaiah 2. All then needed to see was the signs in the sun and moon and then the great earthquake.  Again, HOW MANY COMINGS do you see? I see His coming in Rev. 19.  Your  Matthew 24 scripture will be fulfilled in Rev. 19. THAT is His coming with power.

The 70th Seven began when Yeshua` was baptized and His offer of the Kingdom to Israel was first given 3.5 years before His death and resurrection.

This is a theory: it is all it is, and it does not fit verse 27. You cannot find even a hint of 3.5 years in the gospel. And Daniel put a gap between Jesus being "cut off" and verse 27. Notice that verse 27 comes AFTER the cutting off.

Edited by iamlamad
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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Of courses I am not changing the story. Is your body YOU? Yes. Is your spirit YOU? Yes. Is your soul (your mind) YOU? Of course!

So when it says "he" was buried, we know it was His body that was buried. how could anyone bury a spirit they cannot see? When someone dies, all that is left in the physical realm is the body. The spirit and soul LEAVE the body. When the spirit was IN the body, the person was in control. The moment the spirit leaves the body, God is in control of that spirit. In Lazarus' case, angels carried Him (His spirit with His soul) to Abraham's bosom. Why ever said spirit's cannot be carried? Angels are continually escorting human spirits to heaven, and demonic spirits are dragging human spirits to hell.
...

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but that's not how the words work. Is your body YOU? Yes. Is your soul (your air-breather) YOU? Yes. Is your spirit (your breath) YOU? NO!!!

So, the correct way of saying your next paragraph is...

So when it says "he" was buried, we know it was His body that was buried. how could anyone bury a breath they cannot see? When someone dies, all that is left in the physical realm is the body. The "spirit," or "breath," LEAVES the body, and the "soul," the "air-breather," ceases to exist! When the spirit was IN the body, the person was in control. The moment the spirit or "breath" leaves the body, it goes back to God who gave it. In Lazarus' case, angels carried him (his body with a spirit, making his soul, after his body is resurrected and brought back to life) to Abraham's bosom (haven). Whoever said spirits CAN be carried? No one can carry a breeze. One can carry air, and one can carry a fan or a pump that blows that air, but how are you going to make that blowing air that person's "breath?" Angels are ASSUMED by those who don't understand these words to continually escorting human spirits to heaven, but why would they be carrying breezes or breaths to the sky? And, I don't know too many who would even CLAIM that "demonic spirits are dragging human spirits to hell!" That's something you see in TV shows and movies that has absolutely NO Scriptural backing. God's messengers will be hauling the resurrected, unjustified people to the Great White Throne Judgment to stand trial before God. Once their sentence is pronounced, the messengers will throw these resurrected, unjustified people into the Lake of Fire. HaSatan, the devil or the slanderer, and all his messengers will have their part in the Lake of Fire, as well.  They don't have any authority in "hell"; they are just going to suffer like anyone else thrown into the Lake of Fire.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

...

"The wrath of the Lamb?" How is it possible for them to know it's HIS wrath, if He has not returned? Are they just assuming this is true? OR, which is more likely, did they WATCH HIM COME?

Oh my! Go and read Joel 2 and Isaiah 2. They knew because of Isaiah 2. All then needed to see was the signs in the sun and moon and then the great earthquake.  Again, HOW MANY COMINGS do you see? I see His coming in Rev. 19.  Your  Matthew 24 scripture will be fulfilled in Rev. 19. THAT is His coming with power.
...

 

And, just how many atheists and agnostics and delusional narcissists do you know who even CONSULT the Bible?!

I see only ONE Coming and within that Coming will be the First Resurrection/Rapture-transport. However, I'm not so naive as to believe that Yeshua` will have His army instantaneously equipped, complete with horses! It will take TIME to equip His armies and His cavalry. The war itself that He will wage with His armies will also take time! You've got to understand that things in Revelation don't just happen instantaneously or with a "<poof!>" as if by magic! God has NEVER worked that way! That's why Yeshua` and His disciples would GET TIRED during His first advent. If you had to deal with thousands of people on a daily basis, you'd get tired, too!

Even the Resurrection and the Rapture-transport that immediately follows take time, as well! Suppose you were one of these messengers who was gathering resurrected individuals. After a few million people, you might be several hours into the task, as well.

Messengers of God (commonly called "angels") take time to perform their tasks, as well. Nothing is done by magic! With the seventh trumpet, I hear the multitudes say, 

Revelation 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

He's already been back by this time! It's at this time that God and His Messiah CLAIM the kingdoms of the world! That won't happen until AFTER He has established the Kingdom of Israel.

Just a look at Revelation 14:1 should tell a person that Yeshua` is already back:

Revelation 14:1
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV

This is the LITERAL Har Tsiy'own (Mount Zion) in present-day Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

Revelation 19 is the last battle that Yeshua` stages to end the war that had been started in Revelation 6. 

Revelation 14 is a proof, as well.

Revelation 14:19-20
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
KJV

This is not just some vision. This is a battle that Yeshua` the Messiah wages against His enemies.

The thing you (and others) must remember is this: The word "heaven" is translated from the Greek word "ouranos" which means "the sky," and even the tops of mountains are said in the Scriptures to be "in the sky." And, it's also true that not everything in Revelation occurs in the sky (in "heaven")!

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

...

The 70th Seven began when Yeshua` was baptized and His offer of the Kingdom to Israel was first given 3.5 years before His death and resurrection.

This is a theory: it is all it is, and it does not fit verse 27. You cannot find even a hint of 3.5 years in the gospel. And Daniel put a gap between Jesus being "cut off" and verse 27. Notice that verse 27 comes AFTER the cutting off.

It's more than just a theory. There's evidence between all four Gospels (and a good Harmony of the Gospels will show you) that He observed 4 Passovers during His time with His students. It started when He was "about thirty years old," and His birthday is probably during Row'sh haShannah, the "Head of the Year," the civil Jewish New Year which occurs on Tishrei 1-2, which this year occurs on September 20 (at sundown) through September 22 (also at sundown), or two weeks later at the beginning of Sukkowt ("Booths" or "Tabernacles"). Since He died on a Passover, His "ministry" lasted for 3.5 years.

As far as Jesus (Yeshua`) being "cut off," you must understand that the "cutting off" occurred AFTER the 62 Sevens, as well. The text doesn't say - not in English nor in Hebrew - that He was "cut off" AT THE END of the 62 Sevens, just that it happens some time AFTER the 62 Sevens! However, what you WILL find in Daniel 9:27 is that the Messiah caused the end of the Sacrifices and the Gifts, and according to Hebrews 10, this occurred when His death split the veil in the Temple, and this occurs in the middle of the 70th Seven, according to Daniel.

By the way, it wasn't Daniel who put the "gap" in the 70 Sevens; it was Yeshua` Himself, and He put it in the MIDDLE of the 70th Seven:

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

It's only the stubbornness of His people, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, that has caused this gap to be 2,000 years in length!

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6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There's evidence between all four Gospels (and a good Harmony of the Gospels will show you) that He observed 4 Passovers during His time with His students. It started when He was "about thirty years old," and His birthday is probably during Row'sh haShannah, the "Head of the Year," the civil Jewish New Year which occurs on Tishrei 1-2, which this year occurs on September 20 (at sundown) through September 22 (also at sundown), or two weeks later at the beginning of Sukkowt ("Booths" or "Tabernacles"). Since He died on a Passover, His "ministry" lasted for 3.5 years.

1. In his Gospel, John records three Passovers.  John alone recorded the three separate Passover celebrations. John mentions the first in John 2, the second Passover in 6:4 and the third one in 11:55; 12:1; 13:1; 18:28, 39; and 19:14. This third Passover was the one that occurred on the night before Jesus died, and it is the one recorded by all four Gospel writers in conjunction with the Last Supper and the death of Jesus.

2. No one knows when Jesus was born.  His birth has NOTHING to do with how long His Ministry was; His Baptism determines the start.

3. Three Passovers happen in two years' time when the first one is counted as the starting point, and you can do the all three in 24-25 months.  Given that His Baptism happened at some other time before the first Passover recorded in John, and He died with the third one 24-25 months later; Jesus' first Ministry is LESS THAN one half of the one 'seven', and LESS THAN THREE YEARS in length, perhaps 30-35 months long. 

4. The ONLY Covenant Jesus makes at all, is at the end of His First Advent.

5. There is NO abomination (idol) associated with this time.

6. Jesus' karat -cutting off- which comes after the sixty-two 'sevens', happened right after He made that NEW Covenant.

7. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary happened 35+ years later.

8. No idol was erected IN the Temple at that time either.

9. War continues until the end IAW Dan 9:26, and there is war in both halves of the one 'seven' until Armageddon - which is the end.

Edited by Marcus O'Reillius
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2 hours ago, inchrist said:

And again you fail to take into account ... Which by the way would of taken abit of time.

Three Passovers: 24-25 months with the first being the start and the third being the end.

I said: 30-35 months for Jesus' Ministry.

So I DID take all that into account.  Some people just don't bother to read other people's posts before they're ready to mount the attack against them.

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Luke is an historical account written after the fact, he researched his account and Luke was not an eyewitness, and as such is parallel to John's account and not in addition to in series.

Standard theology: Christ Jesus' THIRD year of ministry is one of conflict and falling out.  He never completed that third year and moved into a fourth year.

Jesus' First Advent was not equal to the first half of the one 'seven'.    The entire notion is false, and the only way to arrive at such a conclusion is to make up Scripture and inject things that aren't there.

Preterist, partial or full, remains the least supported eschatology.

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inchrist wrote,

Please provide scriptures about demons dragging human spirits to hell? 

Can you find a scripture proving they DON'T? Everything that happens in our life is not written in scripture.  You will not find your name and what will happen tomorrow to you? 

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