The Abomination of Desolation

[Sister]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

Hi n2thelight.

Good observation. 

I'm not sure if you mean Satan will sit on the throne himself, showing himself? or if you mean that he will go into the FP, and claim glory that way?  In my view it's the same.  Worship the FP and you are worshing Satan, because Satan's spirit is in him.  He is Satan's mouthpiece.

 

[Sister]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are correct: she has many serious problems.

iamlamad.

 Mark 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

  Mark 12:31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

It's ok if we disagree with each other on interpretation, but please, don't let your heart be a breeding ground for contempt.

 

Hebrews 13:1   Let brotherly love continue.

 1 Peter 2:17   Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1 John 2:10   He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad.

 Mark 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

  Mark 12:31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

It's ok if we disagree with each other on interpretation, but please, don't let your heart be a breeding ground for contempt.

 

Hebrews 13:1   Let brotherly love continue.

 1 Peter 2:17   Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1 John 2:10   He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
 

Me and a guy by that exact same name have been gong at it on another site, seems he gets testy if you don't agree with him 100 percent. I read all the posts before I replied, and though I have seen some differences, I am not going to try and call you out, there are things I understand now that I felt different about 8 months ago. We only know that which God chooses to reveal to us and at which time he chooses. Instead of wasting this post, I will post what I think the Abomination of Desolation is, via my study of Daniel 9:27: 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.

2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering

3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.

4.)Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL!!

5.)Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us ? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse 27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE an Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, and he forces this deal on all parties. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God/Jesus, the False Prophet places an IDOL/IMAGE of the Beast in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL/IMAGE or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

 

Daniel 9:27 shorter version........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns Israel, or devastates them. Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

 

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

IT MATCHES to a tee !!! I think the Abomination of Desolation is an IMAGE made like unto the Beast, that will stand in the Temple, where the Anti-Christ will demand all, rich and poor, to worship it, or DIE. 

 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad.

 Mark 12:30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

  Mark 12:31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

It's ok if we disagree with each other on interpretation, but please, don't let your heart be a breeding ground for contempt.

 

Hebrews 13:1   Let brotherly love continue.

 1 Peter 2:17   Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1 John 2:10   He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
 

No contempt: but this is a public teaching platform. False doctrine should be pointed out for readers benefit.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Me and a guy by that exact same name have been gong at it on another site, seems he gets testy if you don't agree with him 100 percent. I read all the posts before I replied, and though I have seen some differences, I am not going to try and call you out, there are things I understand now that I felt different about 8 months ago. We only know that which God chooses to reveal to us and at which time he chooses. Instead of wasting this post, I will post what I think the Abomination of Desolation is, via my study of Daniel 9:27: 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.

2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering

3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.

4.)Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL!!

5.)Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us ? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse 27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE an Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, and he forces this deal on all parties. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God/Jesus, the False Prophet places an IDOL/IMAGE of the Beast in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL/IMAGE or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

 

Daniel 9:27 shorter version........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns Israel, or devastates them. Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

 

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

IT MATCHES to a tee !!! I think the Abomination of Desolation is an IMAGE made like unto the Beast, that will stand in the Temple, where the Anti-Christ will demand all, rich and poor, to worship it, or DIE. 

 

I am not sure this is a "forced" deal. Suppose Israel whips the Muslims severely in this next war, and it is them that is crying "uncle." THEY (as in their leader who will turn into the Beast) ask for a deal. I think this is as plausible as anything else.

I think the abomination will begin with the man of sin entering the temple, as Paul tells us; The temple will instantly be corrupted and  "the sacrifice and the oblation" will cease, as Daniel wrote. Then after the False Prophet shows up, and the image is created, I suspect the image is placed on the Holy of Holies. And it actually speaks.  i think it is the man of sin entering the temple that will divide the week and the abomination by which those in Israel will flee.

Don't be looking for Elijah before Rev. 11! I think He will be one of the two witnesses. He will not have to show up before, for Christ Himself said that John the Baptist fulfilled that prophesy.

We should keep in mind, the New Testament is a much later revelation, and more complete,  and I think we should form our main points of doctrine there; then fill in missing pieces from the Old.

 

Good post!

 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

If you prove me wrong I will admit error, because I love truth and hate anything that is a lie.

Now I am only here to share, because that's what we are supposed to do, not argue and use this forum as a breeding ground for spite, so here goes.

Please look at this;

Three woes are coming upon the earth.

Take it from here; the 4th angel with the trumpet.

  Revelation 8:12   And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

  Revelation 8:13   And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

3 Woes starting after the 4th angel with the TRUMPET ok?

 

5th angel - locusts coming out of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:1   And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

* Revelation 9:12   One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Two more angels coming with the last two woes.

The two witnesses killed
 Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  Revelation 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

*  Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The 3rd woe is the Coming, the 7th Angel.

 

The 7th angel with the trumpet sounds

 Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has taken over the kingdoms of the earth.  He has come and judged.

 

The 7th angel with the vial

 Revelation 16:17   And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Christ has come and claimed all the kingdoms for himself on the 7th trumpet, and it is also done on the 7th vial. Put two and two together and It's the same angel.  There are only three woes and the third one is the coming.  After that it is finished, babylon destroyed, and no more punishments.  Finished.  The millennium starts.

Oh my! Sister, THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet! The "coming" is in chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished. The Kingdoms are given to Jesus Christ, but He will not take possession until after the week has finished!

Next, we should discuss the scriptures on the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses,

Do you think when verse 3 begins it is now 42 months after verse 2?

  ^{Rev. 12:6} And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

⁷ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Do you think verse 7 will come 1260 days after verse 6?

^{Rev. 13:5} And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Do you think verse 6 will be 42 months after verse 5?

I have never heard and never read where anyone considers the verse after these times are mentions as being 3 1/2 years later. Most believe the verse of mention is when the time STARTS.

Therefore, I ask you a question: why do you imagine that at the two witnesses, chapter 11:14, 15,16, will be 1260 days after verse 3? Do you really think the intent of the author is that this one 3 1/2 year period of time should be so different than the other 4, and this one gets fulfilled right here in chapter 11?

This is really impossible, since it does not fit the context. The intent is that 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a PARENTHESIS, and has no bearing whatsoever on chronology. What John does is take us on a "rabbit trail" or "side journey" down the last half of the week, with these two witnesses, but as a parenthesis, so as not to mess up his chronology.

His chronology is as follows:

3 1/2 days before the abomination event that will divide the week, the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem. After all, he MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple as Paul tells us he will. He comes with his Gentile (I think Muslim) armies, who will then trample the city for 42 months. This is telling us that John is right at the midpoint (in months) in this verse.

Next, the two witnesses show up, still, 3 1/2 days before the week is divided by the abomination.

(then John enters a parenthesis that takes us to verse 13 - with NO BEARING on chronology)

Suddenly John writes that the two former woes have been completed and now the 3rd comes.

And the 7th trumpet is sounded.

(things happen)

Then in 12:6 those people living in Judea flee into the wilderness. Why? They are following Jesus' orders: He said WHEN THEY SEE THE ABOMINATION....then flee.

Therefore the abomination MUST BE just before 12:6. Back up and read verse after verse. I am convinced, the 7th trumpet sounding marks the exact midpoint when the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.

If you imagine that the 1260 days of the two witnesses play out as written, without a parenthesis, you have those in Judea fleeing at the end of the week, not at the midpoint. Then you have those that fled being fed and protected for 3 1/2 years after the week has ended!

No, verses 11:4-11:13 MUST BE considered as a parenthesis.

Notice, they begin their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. They testify during chapter 12, and chapter 13. They testify during chapter 14 and 15. They testify right up to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial, and finally the Beast is allowed to kill them. They lay dead these 3 1/2 days, and now their time takes up the entire last half of the week. Did you notice there is a huge earthquake when they rise? Did you notice there is a huge earthquake at the 7th vial? IT IS THE SAME EARTHQUAKE!

It comes at the end of the week. But it is also shown in 11:13 inside a parenthesis.

I hope your conclusion is that the woes are:
5th trumpet

6th trumpet

7th trumpet

Sister wrote: "Christ has come and claimed all the kingdoms for himself on the 7th trumpet, and it is also done on the 7th vial. Put two and two together and It's the same angel.  There are only three woes and the third one is the coming.  After that it is finished, babylon destroyed, and no more punishments.  Finished.  The millennium starts."

You were fair until this part.

1. Christ does NOT return at the 7th trumpet!  (Rev. 19 proves this)

2. Christ does NOT return even at the 7th vial. (Rev. 19 proves this.)

3. It is NOT the same angel! Babylon is not finally destroyed until chapter 18. But there are several prophecies that she WILL BE in the future.

The vials in chapter 16 most certainly follow the 7th trumpet.

17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Note: this is AFTER the vials. Little keys like this show us John wrote these things in the right order and to attempt to rearrange is a mistake.

You are right in one point here: it is at the 7th trumpet that the 6th millennium ends and the 7th one begins.

By the way, there is no spite. I have none.  I think you make a grave error in rearranging Revelation. In the first place, it makes PERFECT sense as it is written and needs to rearranging! Did you notice that the three woes are also numbered and cover different chapters, proving again that John wrote things in the right order?

I wish to ask: wouldn't it make more sense to form a doctrine that FITS Revelation as written, rather then trying to rearrange it to fit your doctrine?

Edited February 9, 2017 by iamlamad

[Sister]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No contempt: but this is a public teaching platform. False doctrine should be pointed out for readers benefit.

It's not good to accuse anyone of anything in case we are wrong ourselves.  Instead we use a diplomatic approach to reason it out. Lay out the scriptures and at least both sides can look into it to weigh out the pros and cons.  If the heart is true, the holy spirit will correct, maybe not straight away, but in time.

There is every possibility that I could be wrong, but some of you guys and girls in the Lord don't get it that Jesus loves the humble, and gives grace to the humble, and rejects the proud.  If we act proud, even knowing we are right, Jesus will stop feeding us, and maybe even take away what we have already been given.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Sister said:

It's not good to accuse anyone of anything in case we are wrong ourselves.  Instead we use a diplomatic approach to reason it out. Lay out the scriptures and at least both sides can look into it to weigh out the pros and cons.  If the heart is true, the holy spirit will correct, maybe not straight away, but in time.

There is every possibility that I could be wrong, but some of you guys and girls in the Lord don't get it that Jesus loves the humble, and gives grace to the humble, and rejects the proud.  If we act proud, even knowing we are right, Jesus will stop feeding us, and maybe even take away what we have already been given.

It might surprise you to learn that warning against false doctrine is emphasized more in the New Testament than even love.  Paul had to do it continually. Peter did it. James did it.  Paul once wrote, "rebuke them sharply... ."  God sets teachers in the church  - that is, one of the five fold ministries in the church, the teaching ministry, to keep church doctrine straight. Someone placed in the office of the teacher may spend months questioning God about His intent in one verse or one passage, waiting for God to answer. A true teacher will rely far more on the Holy Spirit than on any kind of human reasoning. Some scriptures just cannot be understood with human reasoning. Revelation is a good example!

Next, when someone really does know the truth, he or she is considered "unteachable" simply because they will not swallow someone else's false doctrine. I think it goes without saying that the Apostle Paul walked in love, yet sharply rebuked false teachers, even calling some by name!

What should be our response if we find we have been in error? Repent immediately and correct ourselves! A true teacher must NEVER be found teaching false doctrine!

[Sister]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh my! Sister, THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet!

iamlamad

I don't really want to be arguing back and forth, but I will answer your post to me out of respect to show you that I am considering all your points.

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

But you are claiming that the mystery of God is not finished?, and that there are 7 more angels to come?  I say the mystery is over as God is giving proof to the world now that it is he who lives, and he who judges and destroys, and he who saves.

Quote

The "coming" is in chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished. The Kingdoms are given to Jesus Christ, but He will not take possession until after the week has finished!

The 70th week was finished a long time ago.  It has nothing to do with Revelations.  Israel were given back then 70 weeks to repent. The temple was rebuilt, their Messiah came, and was crucified, after that their temple destroyed as a punishment, and the city of Jerusalem left in ruins.  As a result desolation continues until the coming.

Desolate - spiritually dry, thirsty, without truth.
 

[Sister]

Iamlamad

I will answer the rest later.  Your post is so long and will take time.  Just slow it down a bit ok, and lets stick to one subject at a time, otherwise we are going all over the place, adding to the confusion.