Soul sleep

[Remnantrob]

On 2/6/2017 at 7:46 PM, zorgblar said:

For all of the people on here who think our soul goes out of existence until god brings us back to life what about this?

Genesis 35:18 says, "her soul was departing," not "she was departing."

1 Kings 17:21-22 says, "the child's soul came back to him," not "the child came back."

Psalm 146:4 says, "his spirit departs, he returns to the earth." It does not say "he departs, his body returns to the earth."

Luke 8:55 says, "her spirit returned and she awoke," not "she returned and awoke."

Acts 20:10 says, "his soul is still in him," not "he is still in his body."

Also in ps 90:10-12 it says at death we fly away.
Notice it says we fly away.Not just "our soul flys away" like in genesis 35:18 says, "her soul was departing," not "she was departing."

In ps 90:10-12 it says we fly away at death.

Notice at death we fly away.Not just"our soul flys away. Like in genesis 35:18 it says, "her soul was departing" not "she was departing.

This makes ecc 12:7 make since when it says our spirit returns to god.

By the way i got most of this from here: http://wordonly.net/CI07.html

Hi Zorgblar,

 

I went to the website and it seems they are more in support of soul sleep than consciousness after death.  On that same page it states:

 

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The above passages are consistent because they mention either the spirit or soul. We should expect all passages about death to follow the same design, yet we do not see this in two favorite proof texts against soul sleep. In Luke 23:43, for example, Jesus does not tell the thief that his soul will be with Jesus. Paul also ignores this pattern because he does not say his soul will be with Christ in Philippians 1:23. These two texts are clearly different from passages that emphasize death.

Instead, Luke 23:43 and Philippians 1:23 resemble Scriptures that emphasize the resurrection. Numerous passages say we will be with Christ when He returns (e.g. John 5:28-29, 6:39-40, 44, 54, 11:24, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). Why are Luke 23:43 and Philippians 1:23 different from these other texts?

Soul sleep follows a consistent pattern of interpretation. When the passage does not mention spirit or soul, it talks about the whole person. In Luke 23:43, Jesus makes the promise that day about the resurrection; in Philippians 1:23, Paul ignores the time of unconsciousness between death and resurrection because it is irrelevant. These two inconclusive passages should not be overemphasized at the expense of numerous other verses that support soul sleep.

Traditionalists are very subjective and inconsistent when they interpret these passages. If the passage could support conditionalism, they insist it is only talking about the body; if the passage could support continued consciousness, they insist it is talking about the soul outside the body. Since their minds are already made up, God's Word is of no effect (Mark 7:13).

 

　and then in it's conclusion it said:

 

 

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Conclusion Concerning the Intermediate State

The Bible does not support continued consciousness after death. Traditionalists defend this belief three questionable ways. One method is using obvious exceptions and applying this as a rule for everyone. The transfiguration, for instance, only concerned Elijah and Moses.

Another tactic is interpreting symbolic passages literally (Isaiah 14:9, Ezekiel 32:21, Luke 16:19-31, Revelation 6:9-10). Traditionalists put undue emphasis on figurative language because literal passages do not support their belief.

The third method is emphasizing ambiguous verses that could be interpreted several ways. Through extensive commentary and reliance on uninspired writings, traditionalists convince Christians that their belief is the only possible interpretation of these unclear Scriptures.

While the case for continued consciousness is suspect, Scripture contains tons of evidence for soul sleep. Many passages are clear and hard to interpret any other way. Opponents do not even offer a legitimate response to many of them. As pointed out in the previous section, their claim that all Scriptures supporting soul sleep only refer to the body is clearly inconsistent with the way they interpret other passages.

 

 

[No124get1952]

The basic issue here is that God created us to be "eternal" beings. Eternal means without end. So the doctrine of hell as a place for  everlasting torment is a logical one. We must remember, however, that Scripture says that hell was not designed for humans but for the devil and his fallen angels. So, for anyone to WANT to go there means they are truly deceived...it's not going to be a place where we can meet up with our fallen friends and party....

That being said, heaven is not like we think it may be either. It's going to be better than any representation that we have ever seen, no matter how good. The point is, that for eternity in heaven, we are going to be WITH God and Jesus. Now THAT's a reason to party!!!

But though God is a God of grace, not everyone is going to be given entrance into heaven. Jesus very clearly set the bar for that. So everyone that believes that "everyone" is going to heaven clearly has not read the entire record of the entrance requirements or they have "stretched" the meaning of scriptures to include everyone based upon a flawed understanding of God's grace, etc.

Those who believe in annihilation are heretical because they deny the existence of what God created. They are bordering on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because they deny the substitutionary death of Jesus on the Cross as the entry requirement for heaven. Their argument is intellectually lazy because though they recognize everyone does not get saved, they just "erase" them to avoid difficult theological reasoning. But, if human souls are truly eternal, annihilation doesn't even make sense.

In one aspect, we can agree with Universalism...everyone will be saved...some for eternal life with God and some saved for eternal damnation without God...in either case one is saved for eternity......

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Remnantrob said:

Yay someone remembered us!

But not to commend those who promote soul sleep.  Quite the opposite.  And the claim that there is more in Scripture to support this false doctrine than not is totally bogus.

[Remnantrob]

1 hour ago, No124get1952 said:

The basic issue here is that God created us to be "eternal" beings. Eternal means without end. So the doctrine of hell as a place for  everlasting torment is a logical one. We must remember, however, that Scripture says that hell was not designed for humans but for the devil and his fallen angels. So, for anyone to WANT to go there means they are truly deceived...it's not going to be a place where we can meet up with our fallen friends and party....

That being said, heaven is not like we think it may be either. It's going to be better than any representation that we have ever seen, no matter how good. The point is, that for eternity in heaven, we are going to be WITH God and Jesus. Now THAT's a reason to party!!!

But though God is a God of grace, not everyone is going to be given entrance into heaven. Jesus very clearly set the bar for that. So everyone that believes that "everyone" is going to heaven clearly has not read the entire record of the entrance requirements or they have "stretched" the meaning of scriptures to include everyone based upon a flawed understanding of God's grace, etc.

Those who believe in annihilation are heretical because they deny the existence of what God created. They are bordering on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because they deny the substitutionary death of Jesus on the Cross as the entry requirement for heaven. Their argument is intellectually lazy because though they recognize everyone does not get saved, they just "erase" them to avoid difficult theological reasoning. But, if human souls are truly eternal, annihilation doesn't even make sense.

In one aspect, we can agree with Universalism...everyone will be saved...some for eternal life with God and some saved for eternal damnation without God...in either case one is saved for eternity......

 

Hey No124get1952,

First of all we're neighbors! Unless you haven't updated you place of residence( which i haven't).  Send me a PM and let's meet up one day(my church is right down the block in kennesaw so this weekend would be cool)....this is soooooo cool......sorry.  Anyways just wanted to comment on this portion.

Quote

 

Those who believe in annihilation are heretical because they deny the existence of what God created. They are bordering on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because they deny the substitutionary death of Jesus on the Cross as the entry requirement for heaven. Their argument is intellectually lazy because though they recognize everyone does not get saved, they just "erase" them to avoid difficult theological reasoning. But, if human souls are truly eternal, annihilation doesn't even make sense.

In one aspect, we can agree with Universalism...everyone will be saved...some for eternal life with God and some saved for eternal damnation without God...in either case one is saved for eternity......

 

I would disagree that holding the stance of annihilationism automatically equals denial of the existence of what God created.  I agree with your original premise that God created us with the potential to be eternal beings but we forfeited that once Adam ate the fruit that didn't belong to him.  Everything exists and is sustained because of God so immortality outside of God makes no sense.  I don't see how the stance denies the substitutionary death of Jesus but I'm open to hearing your stance.  I would also like to point out that your last statement would be considered heretical....well no...it's just illogical to me I after reading over 3 times I see where you were going with it.  Anyhow that's my 2 cents.

[Remnantrob]

12 minutes ago, Ezra said:

But not to commend those who promote soul sleep.  Quite the opposite.  And the claim that there is more in Scripture to support this false doctrine than not is totally bogus.

thanks for the the clarity Ezra... I knew that...just wanted to shed light in this gloomy topic of death. I posted the original poster's source that was supposedly against soul sleep and that was their statement....and I'm obviously inclined to agree.  The false doctrine of consciousness after death has a handful of text while the rest of the bible supports that the dead aren't aware of this conversation we're having right now.  This is one of the reasons why God was so against Israel reaching out to people who dealt with the dead e.g. necromancers.

Leviticus 19:31 Micah 5:12 Deuteronomy 18:10-14 etc

[Willa]

On 2/6/2017 at 4:46 PM, zorgblar said:

For all of the people on here who think our soul goes out of existence until god brings us back to life what about this?

Genesis 35:18 says, "her soul was departing," not "she was departing."

1 Kings 17:21-22 says, "the child's soul came back to him," not "the child came back."

Psalm 146:4 says, "his spirit departs, he returns to the earth." It does not say "he departs, his body returns to the earth."

Luke 8:55 says, "her spirit returned and she awoke," not "she returned and awoke."

Acts 20:10 says, "his soul is still in him," not "he is still in his body."

Also in ps 90:10-12 it says at death we fly away.
Notice it says we fly away.Not just "our soul flys away" like in genesis 35:18 says, "her soul was departing," not "she was departing."

In ps 90:10-12 it says we fly away at death.

Notice at death we fly away.Not just"our soul flys away. Like in genesis 35:18 it says, "her soul was departing" not "she was departing.

This makes ecc 12:7 make since when it says our spirit returns to god.

By the way i got most of this from here: http://wordonly.net/CI07.html

If you want to remain in your stinking purifying body till Jesus comes, go right ahead.  I choose to go immediately to be with the Lord as did Paul.  "So we will ever by with the Lord".  

[Ezra]

47 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

The false doctrine of consciousness after death has a handful of text while the rest of the bible supports that the dead aren't aware of this conversation we're having right now.

Really?  Then what do you make of this Scripture?

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1).

How can anyone be A WITNESS if he or she is fast asleep in the grave?  If you went into a court of law and the judge asked you if you were asleep while claiming to be a witness, you would be laughed out of court.

[SOLOMONS PORCH]

If we TRULY TRULY TRULY trust in Jesus and that we have given everything over to HIM. To me it doesn't matter "how" it happens. I could care less whats first second or third. Soul, body, spirit or whatever......IF I TRUST THE LORD none of that matters. But the scriptures are just awe inspiring and not to create conflict. I almost died about 10 yrs ago......believe me , at that time I could care less in what order or how anything happened. Because I trusted that a HIGHER POWER had it all under control and HE would do nothing to hurt me. Seriously.....TRUST HIM and stop the bickering, just not important already. When you dying or your soul went to sleep or whatever......DONT MATTER.  I trust the LORD i serve, I need not worry about all that. When I was found by my daughter basically dying, there was absolutly nothing on my mind as to what is fixing to happen, because MY LIFE belonged to Jesus and i did not care. I felt like I was going to sleep, my sound went and my vision started going.....there was no worry in me at that point. Please people trust Him and let it go already.......FAITH!!!

[Remnantrob]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Really?  Then what do you make of this Scripture?

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1).

How can anyone be A WITNESS if he or she is fast asleep in the grave?  If you went into a court of law and the judge asked you if you were asleep while claiming to be a witness, you would be laughed out of court.

I would venture to say it's the saints mentioned in the previous chapter.  But not in the sense that you are alluding to in that they are conscious.  I would be labeled as an African American and it is common for those in my community to say things like we're standing on the shoulders of our ancestors etc. I just take that is that they started the race and it's up to me to continue/finish it not that they are around me whispering keep on keeping on brother rob...  

We are surrounded by the vast testimonies of the patriarchs and prophets, the angels who have been witnesses to the revelations of the bible and what I believe to be creations from other worlds(but you can take that last one with a grain of salt because it is an sda belief)  

[Remnantrob]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Really?  Then what do you make of this Scripture?

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1).

How can anyone be A WITNESS if he or she is fast asleep in the grave?  If you went into a court of law and the judge asked you if you were asleep while claiming to be a witness, you would be laughed out of court.

Also I'm not a lawyer but wouldn't a dead witness's testimony stand in court if it was like their final statement?  If so then that should be applicable to your last question.