zorgblar

Soul sleep

63 posts in this topic

20 hours ago, zorgblar said:

In ps 90:10-12 it says we fly away at death.

Notice at death we fly away.Not just"our soul flys away". Like in genesis 35:18 it says, "her soul was departing" not "she was departing.

This makes ecc 12:7 make since when it says our spirit returns to god.

If you read this by it's self it might make more sense.I got this quote from my first post and shortened it to make my main point more clear.My first post is the post right before all the other ones.

It says we fly away. agreed. I don't have an explanation to support my view on this verse alone, but I still don't think the state of the dead can be substantiated on this one verse alone...a good one I admit.

For the genesis 35:18 argument I will quote one of the scholars from my church.

Quote

In addition to those passages we have just considered in which the soul–nephesh is associated with death, at least two texts deserve special consideration because they speak of the departure and return of the soul. The first is Genesis 35:8, which says that Rachel’s soul was “departing” as she was dying, and the second is 1 Kings 17:21-22, which tells of the soul of the widow’s son returning to him. These two texts are used to support the view that at death the soul leaves the body and returns to the body at the resurrection. In his book Death and the Afterlife, Robert A. Morey appeals to these two texts to support his belief in the survival of the soul upon the death of the body. He writes: “If the authors of Scripture did not believe that the soul left the body at death and would return to the body at the resurrection, they would not have used such a phraseology [departing and returning of the soul]. Their manner of speaking reveals that they believed that man ultimately survived the death of the body.”37 Can this conclusion be derived legitimately from these two texts? Let us take a closer look at each of them. In describing Rachel’s hard labor, Genesis 35:18 says: “And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Benoni; but his father called his name Benjamin.” To interpret the phrase “her soul was departing” as meaning that Rachel’s immortal soul was leaving her body while she was dying, runs contrary to the consistent teaching of the Old Testament that the soul dies with the body. As Hans Walter Wolff rightly points out, “We must not fail to observe that the nephesh [soul] is never given the meaning of an indestructible core of being, in contradistinction to the physical life, and even capable of living when cut off from that life. When there is a mention of the ‘departing’ (Gen 35:18) of the nephesh from a man, or of its ‘return’ (Lam 1:11), the basic idea is the concrete notion of the ceasing and restoration of breathing.”38 The phrase “her soul was departing” most likely means that “her breathing was stopping,” or we might say, she was taking her last sigh. It is important to note that the noun “soul–nephesh” derives from the verb by the same root which means “to breathe,” “to respire,” “to draw breath.” The inbreathing of the breath of life resulted in man becoming a living soul, a breathing organism. The departing of the breath of life results in a person becoming a dead soul (“for she died”). Thus, as Edmund Jacob explains, “The departure of nephesh is a metaphor for death; a dead man is one who has ceased to breathe.”  Tory Hoff offers a similar comment: “Through the concrete image of the departure of breath, the text communicates that Rachel was in the process of dying while she named her newborn son. She was not yet dead in the modern sense of the word, but was ebbing closer to death by the moment. She was losing the nephesh vitality that ruah [breath] sustained to the degree that she would soon depart from nephesh existence.”40 We conclude that the departure of the soul is a metaphor for death, most likely associated with the interruption of the breathing process. This conclusion is supported by the second text, 1 Kings 17:21-22.  Immortality or Resurrection, p. 50&51  Bacchiocchi

 

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On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:08 PM, Remnantrob said:

Genesis 4:9,  10

 

 

I thinks it's called a metaphor.  I could be wrong though.

No its not a metaphor. This works well with what I quoted. Abel cried out to God from Sheol.

There is no soul sleep. The saints mentioned in Revelation 6 are DEAD in body but they are alive with the Lord, conscious and speaking. NOT SLEEPING

Also what do you think this passage means; I cant have been the only one to ask, by far, but not having the internet at home I rarely have the time to read too many messages.

 2 Corinthians 5:8   We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Also, referring to the little girl whom Christ raised from the dead

Luke 8:55   And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

This is not the lifebreath of the child but her conscious spirit which had left her body to go to Sheol.

 

 

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Re:  Meaning of 'Sleep' in Luke 8:52

Luke 8:51-55

"King James Bible
And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat."

...

The higher level Meaning (ie. heavenly) of these Bible passages

In this scripture God is revealing, through the story of Jesus bringing this person back to life, what he performs on our spirit (ie. brings it back from the dead).

Our spirit is dead until God comes into our life and renews it.

Those that follow false idols (as he revealed to me last night in a vision), are dead in their spirit.  Even those that follow a practice like Catholicism (that was the example he utilized).

While we might pull out random passages to attempt to prove something about death, we miss the obvious, that we are in mortal bodies that will die, but each have souls that need actual saving here and now.

Attempting to understand death, when we do not remotely understand life, is therefore a fruitless pursuit.

Updated

Re: Death

When we die, we enter God's presence (if saved by the blood of the lamb).

Ephesians 3:12

12In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence. 

Hebrews 10:19

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Consciousness After Death

2 Corinthians 5:8

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Death Of God's People

1 Thessalonians 4:13

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

 Corinthians 15:18

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.


 

 

Edited by eileenhat
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