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Daniel's 9:26 & 27: what is the Author's intent?


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9 hours ago, inchrist said:

Zech 11:10 shows God using Christ to break the OT covenant.

Oversimplification leading to a theological error.

Specifically, if you even know them, what OT Covenant did Zechariah in his role as the Good Shepherd break?

Was it not "I will not deliver them from their (the other nations) power."?  Yes it was.  Verse 4.

Who is it that "prevails" a covenant with many for one 'seven'?  The prince who will come: the anti-Christ. 

FUTURE.  The whole of the one 'seven' is yet to be fulfilled. 

Preterists and Preterist-leaners cannot answer where Jesus made a Covenant at the beginning of His First Advent.

Nor can they identify the midpoint abomination.

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5 hours ago, inchrist said:

So John mentions a contract in Revelations.

Care to show me....im not interested in your opinions.... I actually want scripture....in fact also show me where this 70th week is

Sorry, that was suppose to be Daniel. Don't get your hopes up: the very reason we are in disagreement is because there is so few verses telling us anything about this subject.

The 70th week is marked with 7's: the 7th seal opens the 70th week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Don't disagree with this, or you will be wrong!

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6 hours ago, inchrist said:

So the antichrist is going to strengthen an existing covenant between jews and God for animal sacrifices....and God is not going to find that to be an abomination?

 

 

Clearly you havnt been following....I place the latter half of Daniel 9:27b into future that includes the abomination.

You dispensationalist twist scripture all in an effort to show Rev 7 multitude is the Raptured church.

Giving the grammar of comming out the tribulation to be a repeated continual action and not a single all out event.

Unless the rapture doctrine has changed....you have God cherry picking christians over an extended period of time.

Your base of understanding Daniel is wrong...it is no surprise that your conclusion is wrong.

 

How many times must I show you how much you are in error here? Did it just go right over your head? Ah! It is those pesky preconceived glasses again! Take them off and READ:

 Mat 2:11  And when they were come G2064 into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Where is the "continual" coming? It is not here. Your theory is simply not truth.

Mat 2:21  And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came G2064 into the land of Israel.

Where is the "continual" coming? Your theory is only a theory and a false one at that.

Mat 2:23  And he came G2064 and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Where is the "continual" coming? It is not found because your theory is false.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting G2064 upon him:

Where is the "continual" coming? The Holy Spirit came ONCE and stayed.

Mat 4:13  And leaving Nazareth, he came G2064 and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

Where is the "continual" coming? It is only a figment of your imagination.  I am confident you will never admit to being wrong.

Mar 5:1  And they came over G2064 unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

Where is the "continual" coming? There was ONE trip to the other side at this time.

Luk 1:59  And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came G2064 to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.

Where is the "continual" coming?  It is not to be found in this verse! Where did your theory come from? Imagination?

Act 14:24  And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came G2064 to Pamphylia.

Where is the "continual" coming?  This is only ONE coming. Your theory is simply faulty.

It was my intent to show a verse from every book in the New Testament. There are over 600 uses, so that would not be a problem at all. If we could attach any other meaning to this word, it would be that it just happened - it is not a coming from sometime back in history.

So once again your theory fails: this group seen around the throne is the just raptured church: they were NOT THERE in chapters 4 & 5. They JUST ARRIVED. And they did NOT "continaully" arrive.

Now, if you mention this again, I will quote a verse from every book in the New testament showing this Greek word can be used for a SINGLE coming: one that just happened.

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

I wonder why.

 

I think Ill stick with backing Christ on this one who knows Daniels seventy seven a hell of a lot more than you've given Christ credit for.

 

Matthew

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

Mark

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

 

And the very reason why the crucifixion is to be included in the seventy seven

 

Matthew

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

 

And backing Christ up who knew the timing of His death by cutting Isaiahs prophecy in half

 

Luke

The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

 

Thats right to offer forgveness seventy seven times by the cross.

John

 Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified".

All pointing to Christ completion of his first half of the 70th week where Christ gave the signs of his second advent that excluded some wild assertion that an antichrist is goinf to strengthen a covenant between jews and God

 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand

Your right scripture does say alot about your theory.....says alot on mine.

No it doesnt, at this stage you need start learning about the Jewish wedding analogy as well as Jacobs marriages to Leah and Rachel, then start learning about the appointed feasts.

Good luck.

Thanks. you brought another proof text to mind:

Genesis 29:20

So Jacob served seven years to get Rachel, but they seemed like only a few days to him because of his love for her.

HOW many years was "Jacob's trouble?"

It was seven more years he was tricked into serving.  NOT 3 1/2, but 7.

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6 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is disparate stuff....all of those are in the past tense

Rev great multitide is in the present tense

I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"Come" is in the present tense....the correct wording is coming because they are presently coming out the great tribulation....its a continual action as John and the elder are watching them coming out one by one out of the great tribulation

So grammatically this statement of yours.... 

......is false.

Please be my guest.

Thanks! I believe I will!  I must give credit where credit is due: you were right in a way: I should have found only the PRESENT TENSE forms of this word. I repent of not doing that.

The following are all the PRESENT TENSE forms of " erchomai "

 

Luk 13:7  Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come G2064 seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

He came three years ago, He came two years ago, and this year he came....so this is a coming again and again, but for one person.

Luk 19:13  And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. G2064

In this story His coming will be a ONE TIME coming.

Jhn 5:7  The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, G2064 another steppeth down before me.

Perhaps he tried to come over and over in the past. So when He says, “while I am coming,” he is speaking of each individual coming.

Jhn 8:14  Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, G2064 and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, G2064 and whither I go.

He came from heaven ONCE.

Jhn 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come G2064 again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

His coming will be once FOR the church, then once WITH the church. But in this context it is a SINGLE coming FOR the church.

Jhn 14:18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come G2064 to you.

His coming is a ONE TIME coming as shown in the day of Pentecost.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come G2064 to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

He prayed to the Father many times.

Jhn 17:13  And now come I G2064 to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

He prayed to the Father many times.

Jhn 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, G2064 what is that to thee? follow thou me.

This coming will be a ONE TIME coming as shown in Rev. 19

Jhn 21:23  Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, G2064 what is that to thee?

This coming will be a ONE TIME coming as shown in Rev. 19

2Co 13:1  This is the third time I am coming G2064 to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

More than one coming.

1Ti 4:13  Till I come, G2064 give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

He is speaking of His arriving there once.

 Many "I am coming" to the churches in Rev. 2 & 3.

How many times will He come to each church? He is speaking of His coming once as in Rev. 19.

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come G2064 quickly. Amen. Even so, come, G2064 Lord Jesus.

This probably refers to His coming FOR the saints.

Case in point: in none of these examples do we find many people coming one at a time.

Rev. 7:After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Present tense " erchomai "  in Greek Septuagint

Zec 2: 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.

This is clearly the Rev. 19 coming: and ONE TIME thing.

Isa. 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

The nations gather ONE time, then they die.

 

Strongs definition of Greek Present Tense:

“The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.”

Case in point: the KJV rendered Erchomai  in our verse in Rev. 7 as “which came.” It is a “historical presents” verb. I disagree with your take on this verse: John did not see people coming one by one: he saw the entire crowd there around the throne. I am convinced he used the “historical present” sense because he was there seeing this great crowd.

From NASB:
In regard to the use in Greek of the historical present, the Board recognized that in some contexts the present tense seems more unexpected and unjustified to the En­glish reader than a past tense would have been. But Greek authors frequently used the present tense for the sake of heightened vividness by transporting their readers in im­agination to the actual scene at the time of occurrence.

 

(Emphasis added)

From a Greek scholar: Dr. Maurice Robinson:

“The historical present is merely a stylistic literary device used in Koine Greek to heighten the dramatic impact of the narrative by placing the reader in a “you are there” type of framework. In English, the more usual style requires use of the past tense wherever the Greek might use the historical present, and English, translating the Greek as past tense in such situations, is *not* inaccurate nor does it have any actual effect upon exegesis or interpretation beyond someone merely noting the heightened dramatic form of expression.”

 

Now, do any of the different translators translate this verse as a one time event that is past tense?

New International Version
I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Berean Study Bible
"Sir," I answered, "you know." So he replied, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Weymouth New Testament
"My lord, you know," I replied. "They are those," he said, "who have just passed through the great distress, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Wycliff bible:  And Y seide to hym, My lord, thou woost. And he seide to me, These ben thei, that camen fro greet tribulacioun, and waischiden her stoolis, and maden hem white in the blood of the lomb.

Tyndale:  And I sayde vnto him: lorde thou wottest. And he sayde vnto me: these are they which cam oute of gret tribulacion and made their garmetes large and made them whyte in the bloud of the lambe:

Coverdale: And I sayde vnto him: LORDE thou wotest. And he sayde vnto me: these are they which cam out of gret tribulacion, and made their garmentes large, and made the whyte in the bloude of the lambe:

Bishop’s bible:  And he sayde vnto hym, Lorde thou wotest. And he sayde to me: These are they which came out of great tribulation, and haue wasshed their long robes, and made them whyte by the blood of the lambe

Geneva Bible:  And I saide vnto him, Lorde, thou knowest. And he saide to me, These are they, which came out of great tribulation, and haue washed their long robes, and haue made their long robes white in the blood of the Lambe.

Mace New Testament:  my Lord, answer'd I, you can tell. and he said to me, these are they who came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

Peshitta - Lamsa Translation:  And I said to him, My LORD, you know. And he said to me, These are those who came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Are there any commentaries that render this as past tense?

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown  came—rather as Greek, "come"; implying that they are just come.

Conclusion? It seems you are no closer to proving these are coming one by one.  This present tense form of "erchomai " can mean exactly what I have been saying: they JUST ARRIVED in heaven as a group.

Some commentaries are on your side of this discussion, but at least one on my side. However, there are 12 translations I found that render this as a past tense event.  It seems one must decide from the context.

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:02 AM, inchrist said:

So the antichrist is going to strengthen an existing covenant between jews and God for animal sacrifices....and God is not going to find that to be an abomination?

Clearly you havnt been following....I place the latter half of Daniel 9:27b into future that includes the abomination.

You dispensationalist twist scripture all in an effort to show Rev 7 multitude is the Raptured church.

Giving the grammar of comming out the tribulation to be a repeated continual action and not a single all out event.

Unless the rapture doctrine has changed....you have God cherry picking christians over an extended period of time.

Your base of understanding Daniel is wrong...it is no surprise that your conclusion is wrong.

The real error in all this is that inchrist goes on his own thinking and doesn't reference a whit of Scripture.
What he does is assume that his Replacement theology is true and then he just rejects out-of-hand anything that doesn't comport with his prejudice.
_________________________________________________________________________

The abomination of desolation is revealed to be a talking image of the "beast-of-a-man": the King of the North: the anti-Christ.

Mt 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),  The Holy Place is IN the Temple, before the Curtain, which separates the Most Holy Place from the area where daily sacrifice and offering is performed by the Jewish Priests.

Daniel 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.  All those pronouns refer to one individual.

Paul writes as well: ...the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  2Th 2:4  This is a more personal description of the two passages above.

Rev 13"14-15 And the Revelation of Christ Jesus to John spells out exactly what is to come: And he (the false prophet of the "land" - Israel, who also has charge of the Temple so that he can set up the abomination of desolation in it) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The false prophet invites the conquering King of the North into the Temple, presenting him with a talking image of himself - an idol, which is an abomination; but this idol does something no other idol has ever done - it is sentient, and speaks.

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Revelation 7:14 is reporting the battle of Armageddon at the end of the tribulation period of 2520 days .... no doubt 

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

If you can not deal with Ephraim being christianized...and some how israelites accepting their israelite messiah is replacement theology....Then take it up with God.

God doesn't say that does He?  Where are your witnesses?  Take it up with God?  Who are you to speak for God?

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Thats (the MIDPOINT ABOMINATION) the latter half of the 70th week...Im asking for the former half....so if you can find me where it states out of the breath of two or three witnesses that the antichrist is going to strengthen a covenant between jews and God....that would be great.

Silly rabbit; Trix are for kids.  WHERE does it state in the Gospels that Jesus' New Covenant - made at the end of His First Advent - is the START of the one 'seven'?

 

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5 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The real error in all this is that inchrist goes on his own thinking and doesn't reference a whit of Scripture.
What he does is assume that his Replacement theology is true and then he just rejects out-of-hand anything that doesn't comport with his prejudice.
_________________________________________________________________________

The abomination of desolation is revealed to be a talking image of the "beast-of-a-man": the King of the North: the anti-Christ.

Mt 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),  The Holy Place is IN the Temple, before the Curtain, which separates the Most Holy Place from the area where daily sacrifice and offering is performed by the Jewish Priests.

Daniel 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.  All those pronouns refer to one individual.

Paul writes as well: ...the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  2Th 2:4  This is a more personal description of the two passages above.

Rev 13"14-15 And the Revelation of Christ Jesus to John spells out exactly what is to come: And he (the false prophet of the "land" - Israel, who also has charge of the Temple so that he can set up the abomination of desolation in it) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The false prophet invites the conquering King of the North into the Temple, presenting him with a talking image of himself - an idol, which is an abomination; but this idol does something no other idol has ever done - it is sentient, and speaks.

This is good! It is TRUTH.

Edited by iamlamad
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