Daniel's 9:26 & 27: what is the Author's intent?

[iamlamad]

I think inchrist needs to see this again: perhaps he has forgotten it, since he keeps asking for it.

...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

Who came and destroyed the city and the sanctuary? It was TITUS and his army. The HE in verse 27 will do the same thing: he will surround Jerusalem and burn it with fire. The city will be destroyed.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"

 

This is the Lord who confirms His covenant with a particular believing part of Israel during the 70th week to come .... the other prince who will come to desecrate is the "anti-christ"

Daniel sees nothing in between of any movements upon the earth after the 69th week ..... until the beginning of the 70th

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

The problem is you no have scripture out of a the mouth of a second witness that states an antichrist cuts a covenant with many....provide that and ill believe you.

I can read "he" just as well as you can. Only problem, you don't understand who this "he" is.

Try reading Revelation 13. And check out the little horn in Daniel 7.

^9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

^{Dan 7:25} And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 13: ⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

There it is! Three "He's"  - all the same man.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

Did you notice that you cant believe the words of sinners and the angel places the wrath at the 7th trumpet, stating the wrath has come.....i mean i hate to point out the obvious thats why at the 7th trunpet we have the bowls of ............? ( Now whats that word im looking for)

I guess it went right over your head that the trumpet judgments are also wrath. How do we know? Because we read. We understand what we read. If you tried reading about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, you would read that in the Day of the Lord, God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world. You would read things like the cattle being perplexed because there is no grass. And the sheep without grass - as a part of the Day of the Lord. You would read in Isa. 2 about a great earthquake where people hide in the rocks in great fear of God as He shakes violently the earth - again part of the Day of the Lord.

In fact, if you would take off your preconceived glasses and read correctly, you would find that the earthquake of the 6th seals is indeed the START of he Day of the Lord, and those "sinners" were smart enough to know it. I guess you are not.

Then as you read about the first, second, third, fourth trumpet judgments, and see that they are fulfilling the Old Testament scriptures on the DAY of the LORD - God destroying the world and the sinners in the world - you would not write such posts as this one above.

Edited February 25, 2017 by iamlamad

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

What where I can actually provide scripture support out the mouth of three witnesses and you cant out the mouth of two or three witnesses...that one? Is that how you establish your take on the bible....

Where?

Zechariah 10:12And I will strengthen [gabar #H1396]

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

Both are verbs.

They are synonymous.

You are no scholar.  Your "witnesses" are mere coincidences of words. 

• You have tried in vain to link Daniel 9:27 to Gen 15:10 on the flimsiest basis: the mere usage of the word - middle.  There is no comparison to be made.
• You said Paul was going from Daniel to Jesus in Gal 3:17, when in fact, Paul was going from Abraham to Moses.
• You said that Jesus' Words announcing the New Covenant was proof-positive He had confirmed an Old Covenant, when He said no such thing.

gabar in both Zechariah 10:6 and 10:12 is in the Piel stem, meaning: intensive action; active voice.  He performs the action.
gabar in Daniel 9:27 is in the Hiphil stem, meaning: causative action; active voice.  He causes the action.

You can even lend an interpretation to both cases in Zechariah which says that God will make them prevail by His Might (gabar).

Now if you want to say that Jesus "confirms" a covenant in Daniel 9:27- As Jesus is the Son of God, He would simple DO the action.

In this case, the actor - and the pronoun reverts to the last person mentioned: the prince who will come and further identified by the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary - CAUSES the action, in this case - forcing through (prevailing) with might, usually military, an agreement: berit.

Furthermore, the same person for the pronoun must be used throughout, and in the end, God's desolations are poured out on him.

That is true for the anti-Christ, but not Christ.

So far the evidence is against you, and your evidence wilts for lack of the water of the Spirit.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

The problem is you no have scripture out of a the mouth of a second witness that states an antichrist cuts a covenant with many....provide that and ill believe you.

FALSE TEST.

THERE IS NO "WITNESS" TEST TO PROPHECY.  Daniel 9:27 is the ONLY time the start of the one 'seven' is stated. 

Revelation 13:14-15 is the ONLY time that the abominations desolation is said to be a talking image.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Word study is important.

It is also important to go to those who study them the most, and don't have a bias such as inchrist who defines words as they suit him based on false tests.

310נכד   (gābar) prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. (ASV and RSV similar.)

 

Derivatives

310a (geber) man.

310b (gibbôr) mighty man.

310c (g^e bûrâ) might.

310d (g^e bîrâ) lady, queen (masc. lord, Gen 27:29, 37).

310e (g^e beret) lady, queen.

 

This root and its derivatives occur 328 times in the OT, of which the verb account for but 26.  The cognate is well attested in the semitic languages, appearing in Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician, and Moabite.  At present, it is only known in a proper noun in Ugaritic.  In general the same meaning is shared throughout.  In Arabic, the basic meaning of the root is “to rise, raise, restore,” with the idea of being strong, or prevailing over coming only in the only in the derived stems.  That the Hebrew may share a similar range of meaning is seen in the Hithpael where the idea is not so much to make oneself prevail over God, as it is to raise oneself up in arrogance and stand in his face (Job 15:25; 36:9; Isa 42:13).  The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior.

 

In the first analysis, might and mighty men were causes for celebration in the OT.  During much of the biblical period Israel was in a heroic age.  Thus the feats and exploits of her champions we causes for delight and storytelling.  Such an exploit was that of David’s three mighty men as they broke through the Philistine lines to bring him water from Bethlehem (I Chr 11:15-19).  I Samuel 1 is a lament for the fallen heroes, Saul and Jonathan, extolling their valiant deeds.  Similarly II Sam 23 records the glories of various mighty men.  I and II Chronicles contain many references to the mighty men of Israel, commonly employing the phrase gibbôr hayil “mighty men of valor” to describe them.  Although Chr generally uses the term to express “warrior” or “soldier,” there are indications that originally this was a technical term for men of a certain social class, “nobles” who had the privilege of bearing arms for the king (cf. Ruth 2:1; I Sam 9:1; II Kgs 15:20, etc. where “warrior” is too narrow a translation.

 

It is not surprising that in such a society God was often depicted as a warrior.  God is the true prototype of the mighty man, and if an earthly warrior’s deeds are recounted, how much more should God’s be.  Thus the psalmists recount God’s mighty acts (106:8; 145:4, 11, 12; etc.) and in various places those attributes which a warrior-king might be expected to possess ―wisdom, might, counsel and understanding― are attributed par excellence to God (Job 12:13; Prov 8:14).  Isaiah (9:6; cf. 10:21) indicates that these will be the attributes of the Coming King, whose name is the Mighty God as well as the Prince of Peace, but he also makes it plain that justice and righteousness will accompany his might (cf. Ps 89: 13-14 [H 14-15]).

 

God’s might draws the limits to man’s might, for man’s prowess is to be gloried in just so long as it does not overstep itself.  When man sees his might as all he needs for successful living, he is deluded (Ps 33:16; 90:10; Eccl 9:11).  When he, in the arrogance of his strength, pits himself against the Warrior-God, he will be destroyed (Ps 52; Jer 9:22; 46:5; etc.).  Rather might must be tempered with wisdom (I Sam 2:9; Prov 16:32; 21:22) and the greatest wisdom of all is to trust God.  Thus it is said that he is geber (a male at the height of his powers) who trust God (Ps 40:4 [H 5]).  The man possessed of might who yet distrusts his own powers and instead trusts those of God is most truly entitled to the appellation “man” (Job 38:3; jer 17:7; Mic 3:8).  This is the “new man” of Paul, for he will have discovered that although transgressions have prevailed over him (Ps 65:3 [H 4]), the Lord’s mercy will prevail over them (Ps 103:11) and that the Lord is indeed “might to save” (Ps 80:3).

 

geber.  Man.  As distinct from such more general words for man as ’ādām, ’ish, ’enosh, etc., this word specifically relates to a male at the height of his powers.  As such it depicts humanity as its most competent and capable level.  Sixty-six occurrences.

 

gibbor.  Mighty, strong, valiant, mighty man.   (RSV often translates “warrior.”) The heroes of champions among the armed forces.  Occurs 16 times.

 

g^ebûrá.  Might.  Refers especially to royal power.  As such it is commonly ascribed to God.  Sixty-three occurrences.

 

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament edited by R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke; © 1980, Moody Press, p 148/9, author: John N. Oswalt, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.

 

 

נכד vb. be strong, mighty in the Aramaic; compel, force, overbearing behavior, constraint in Arabic; subigere in Ethiopic; play the man in Syriac.

―1. be strong, mighty, abs. mighty in power Jb21⁷

2. prevail:―abs. e.g. enemies Ex 17^11.11 with לע prevail over, subj. enemies 2S11²³, blessings Gn 49²⁶ (J), mercy of God Ps103¹¹ 117².  Piel stem: Perfect Zc 10⁶; sf. Zc 10¹²; Imperfect Ec 10¹⁰ make strong, strengthen.  Hiphil stem: Perfect confirm a covenant Dn 9²⁷; Imperfect we will confirm a covenant with our tongue (or, to our tongue will we give strength) Ps 12⁵.  Hitpael stem: Imperfect Jb 15²⁵ Is 42¹³; Jb 36⁹:―of Yahweh, shew himself a mighty one against לע Is 42¹³; of wicked, behave proudly toward (אל) Jb 15²⁵; of erring righteous (abs.) 36⁹.

 

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon

F. Brown, S. Driver, and C. Briggs Reprinted from the 1906 Edition

Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. Ninth printing ― September 2005.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If by Zechariah's use, inchrist would use say Jesus "strengthened"  some Covenant which he still cannot name, does such a word usage test provide "witness" (his term - not a scholarly approach at all) to how we should look at gabar as translated by the King James?  Or can we look at other places the OT uses gabar?

Prevailed:

^{Gen 7:18} The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. ¹⁹ They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. ²⁰ The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. (3 times as “rose”)

____________________________

 

    ^{GE 7:24} The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

____________________________

 

^{Ex 17:11} As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. (2 times as “winning”)

____________________________

 

^{2Sa 11:23} The messenger said to David, "The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance to the city gate.

Based on inchrist's false test of "First Mention" we should say the he ROSE a covenant with many for one 'seven'.

See?  That is poor scholarship and doesn't make sense at all.

 

In the case of both Exodus and 2nd Samuel, we do get a sense of the military component of gabar when used as a verb in which they "prevail."

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Where does it say he confirmed a covenant with many?

Oh i get...you want me to imagine it

You wish for us to imagine how your scriptures fit together.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Lol if you call listening to sinners being smart....then oh boy.....Ill stick to the angel in Rev 11:18 declaring when the wrath starts thank you very much.....

Looks like the day of the lord also starts at the 7th trumpet, Christ gets inaugurated....looks like it is his day

All this shows is how little you know about Revelation. Do you know about Greek Aorist tense verbs? Did you know they are inflected to show no tense at all?