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Daniel's 9:26 & 27: what is the Author's intent?


iamlamad

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44 minutes ago, inchrist said:

What you and iamlamad are having issues with is proving the antichrist confims a covenant and thrusting the entire 7oth week into the future, instead of only the latter half of the week.

Something which most Christians are not aware of is that the common chronology is based on Ptolemy, and that is actually 82 years more than it should be.  So it was exactly 483 years (69 weeks or "sevens") from the proclamation of Cyrus to restore and build Jerusalem until the crucifixion of Christ (when Messiah was "cut off"). To gain a proper understanding of this, people should study The Chronology of Old Testament by Martin Anstey. Which means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is yet future.

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1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Then can you please show where in the Old Testament the time of Christ death was predicted?

 Because Christ came to fulfill scriptures

New Testament speaks of a definite established time at which Christ would die.

"They sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come" (John 7:30).

 

John 2:4,"Mine hour is not yet come."

"My time is not yet come"

"My time is at hand"

the hour is come"

All these verses show that there was a definite time in the plan of God when Christ would die.

There is only one Old Testament scripture which predicted the time of his death.

 

 

All we know is what is written: " And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" Daniel did not tell us how long after.

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inchrist wrote,

Ok lets synthesize this on what you've said.

"Many" no longer means many but Israel or many in Israel...so you add the word Israel to scripture.

What is the Author's intent? That is what both of us should be seeking. 

J.P. Green's Literal:  27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

The complete Jewish Bible:  27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering.

Daniel 12:11  (Peshitta - Lamsa) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be abolished...

So what meaning can we see from this verse? Will there be a temple in Iraq or Iran where they will hold daily sacrifices? How about Japan? No, in General the entire bible is a book written by Jews [including all the descendants of Jacob] and about Jews. What we read is, "he" shall cause the sacrifice to cease or stop. In 12:11 we read that it will be the daily sacrifice. It is just common sense that tells us this "daily sacrifice" will be in a new temple in Israel. Does this have to be written in so many words for us to know this? Besides, I did not make a doctrine of this: Here is what I wrote:

"It seems it will be between the Beast's kingdom (Rev. 17) and Israel. But it could be with more that just Israel. Daniel does not tell us. We don't know who "the many" are. If we needed to know, Daniel would have told us.

Aren't you stretching a little? Only Israel will build a temple and hold sacrifices. Eskimos will continue to do what Eskimos do. And again, we don't know who "the many" are. Are there not "many" in Israel today?"

So let's make this perfectly clear: God did not define "many" for us, did He? You must imagine this covenant is with the world, or many nations. But we both know that the rest of the verse is about ISRAEL.  Japan is not going to be holding daily sacrifices. Therefore I will SUGGEST that many could be many in Israel.  I cannot make this a doctrine, for Daniel really does not tells us.

Question: can you think of any other nation that "For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering" ? In fact, we are talking about Daniel's 70th week here, right? "  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" is what Daniel wrote. So when I say many (in Israel) I really am NOT adding to scripture. The entire 70th week is for ISRAEL. Why then would you imagine that "many" might refer to anything else BUT Israel?

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inchrist wrote,

Then you add to Christs words to no longer be Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

But adding " when you see the antichrist making a covenant". Putting words in Christs mouth.

Sorry, I never wrote those words. Are you ad libbing again?

What does Paul tell us? That the man of sin will enter the temple and declare that he is God. We both know this will be an abomination. Daniel tells us that an abomination will divided the week. Jesus said this abomination will be at the end of this age.

I know you think it is Christ making this covenant. Your thinking is wrong.

I know Christ would NOT make a 7 year covenant and then break it after 3 1/2 years. And when we take other scriptures into our thinking, we know it will be the man of sin that enters the temple and causes the Daily Sacrifices to be stopped.  It is the SAME HE that stops the covenant that will make the covenant.

" J.P. Green's Literal:  27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. "

Your preconceived glasses are giving you all kinds of trouble here! I suggest you take them off, throw them with your theories into file 13, and start over.

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3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Here is your problem notice the word until the messiah, in otherwords from cyrus untill the messiah

You are simply misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) what is revealed. Going back to Daniel 9:26,27:

seven weeks = 7 x 7 = 49 years

threescore weeks = 3 x 20 = 60 x 7 = 420 years

two weeks = 7 x 2 = 14 years

49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years

Add another 7 years (future) and we get 490 years (70 sevens).

 

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The 70th week is still pending just as Daniel 9:24-27 states .... a period of 7 years and 30 days [Daniel 12:1-12]

The Lord's age of grace specifically stated for the Gentiles of the nations lies between the 69th week and that of the 70th week .... a period that has lasted for 2000 years which will terminate at a time known only to the Lord 

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inchrist wrote,

But stating the following: "

Quote

 We have these verses in Daniel for evidence. It is enough.

 

So we no longer establish matters out of the breath of two or three witness but now out of one.

Sums up about right? So for your theory to fly...you need to change words, add to christs words and then subtract from biblical standards to establish matters.

We have the Old and the New. We have Daniel 9, we have Daniel 11, we have Daniel 12, we have Christ Himself, we have Paul, and we have Revelation. Yet, you still don't believe what they are telling you.  How many more do you need?

You have this backwards: I change nothing: I just believe it as written. You wish to ignore the evidence from all the other sources, and rewrite what Daniel wrote.  Leave it as it is and UNDERSTAND IT.

When we look at all the verses on this subject, it is very clear that it is an abomination that divides the week. And Jesus tells us that abomination will happen at the end of the age.  Why do you ignore these verses?

 

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inchrist wrote,

Lets work this out mathematically. 

1. Daniel’s 70 Weeks consists of a total of 490 years (70 x 7) = 490 years  So far so good.

2.  Daniel’s Prophetic measurement of time regarding the Christs annointed appearance recorded a full 69 Weeks had been fulfilled ... (69 x 7) = 483 years.  seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks  7 plus 60 plus 2 = 69 times 7 equals 483. Good.

3.  Daniel’s Prophetic Time Clock of 70 Weeks  did not Stop until  after the Christ was crucified (Cut Off) Who said? This is theory for it is not written.

4.  The Messiah was not Cut Off  until after  69 and 1/2 Weeks – 69 Weeks  UNTIL  He came plus His ministry of 3.5 years ... (69 x 7) + 3.5 = 486.5 or 486.5 years   This too is only theory: all we know is that he was cut off some time AFTER the 69 weeks but BEFORE the 70th. There is Daniel's gap. Daniel does not begin his 70th until verse 27. We are still in verse 26 with His death. No one knows that His ministry was 3 1/2 years. That too is theory. It is human imagination with no scripture to back it up. Why would you do that? There are 3 1/2 years written several times, but NONE about His ministry.

5.  Therefore, (490 - 486.5) = 3.5  years remaining of the 490 original years of Daniel’s 70 Weeks Theory with nothing to back it up but imagination.

In light of the above, how can it be mathematically possible for there to be a full 7 years thrusted into the future? Simply: your fuzzy numbers from your imagination.  Your theory is not what is written. What is written is that from a starting point, in 69 weeks of years the Messiah would show up. He did. Sir Robert Anderson did a good job with that. He showed up right on time. However, many wish to argue with that.

Until

Daniel 9:25 
 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto (until) [Strong’s Hebrew 5704 - `ad] the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...
Right: you quote very well.

After  

Daniel 9:26 And after [Strong’s Hebrew 310] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off... So AFTER He shows up, He is cut off. He must show up first before He can be cut off: that much is certain. What Daniel does NOT say is that it is IN the 70th week that He is cut off. All it says is He is cut off AFTER the time it will take for Him to appear. And this is BEFORE the 70th week begins. Here again is Daniel's gap.

Then in your contradiction if it was 69 full Weeks  UNTIL  the Messiah came, and as history records Christ ministerd AFTER the 69 Weeks, then how could He have been ‘Cut Off’ at the exact ending of 69 Weeks, in irder to justify a gap between the 69th week and 70th week? Your imagination is running wild again! Daniel tells us that from a point to a point the messiah would show up. In out discussion it does not matter if this verse was pointing to His baptism or as Sir Robert Anderson suggested, when He rode into Jerusalem on the colt. What matters is, He showed up at the right time to fulfill this verse. Then at some UNKNOWN time after He showed up, He was cut off. And He was cut off BEFORE the 70th week. WE still have Daniel's gap. We are in verse 26, not verse 27. Anything more than this is imagination.

To this end Christ was crucified during the 70th week, you are proposing , we simply ignore Scripture and suggest that the Crucifixion of the Messiah was NOT part of the 70 Weeks calculations? And  you guys want to call me deluded?

Your imagination had caused you to add to what is written. Just from this verse we can determine your theory does not follow scripture. And we can prove this by getting into verse 27 and showing that it is, indeed, FUTURE.  Why do you ignore the obvious? Oh, because it does not fit. I know. Once again:

Jesus shows us that the abomination event is an END TIMES event. Jesus was QUOTING from Daniel. Therefore, the abomination in verse 27 and in chapter 12 is FUTURE and an end time event. Jesus proves this - but you ignore it.

 Douay-Rheims Bible:  9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Daniel 12:11  (Peshitta - Lamsa) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be abolished, and the abomination is given to destruction, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

This abomination will both  divide the week cause the daily sacrifices to be stopped.

When we examine ALL the scriptures on this subject, we see very clearly that your theory fails. It is the abomination that divides the week, and there must then be the entire week to divide.  Your theory fails the test of scripture rightly divided.

 

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12 hours ago, inchrist said:

I dont think many object to the antichrist being connected with the AOD as future.....theres no issue there atleast from myside

What you and iamlamad are having issues with is proving the antichrist confims a covenant and thrusting the entire 7oth week into the future, instead of only the latter half of the week.

You said that wrong: the trouble is you are trying to make a future 70th week into a future half a week. You are trying to show that Jesus confirms a covenant and then breaks it.  No, the one that breaks it is the same one that causes the abomination. You wish to connect Christ with the AOD. Sorry, it simply does not fit scripture. Our Christ will not break convenants and will not be even remotely associated with an abomination.

 

 

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12 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then can you please show where in the Old Testament the time of Christ death was predicted?

 Because Christ came to fulfill scriptures

New Testament speaks of a definite established time at which Christ would die.

"They sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come" (John 7:30).

 

John 2:4,"Mine hour is not yet come."

"My time is not yet come"

"My time is at hand"

the hour is come"

All these verses show that there was a definite time in the plan of God when Christ would die.

There is only one Old Testament scripture which predicted the time of his death.

 

 

Why look for a verse that is not there? Jesus KNEW in His spirit it was not the time for His sacrifice. Yet, as time progressed, He DID know. How did He know? But some obscure Old Testament verse? No. He knew because He walked in the light of the Holy Spirit.  The very same way WE ALL should be walking.  It is your imagination that Daniel tells the time of Jesus' death.

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