Daniel's 9:26 & 27: what is the Author's intent?

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

Something which most Christians are not aware of is that the common chronology is based on Ptolemy, and that is actually 82 years more than it should be.  So it was exactly 483 years (69 weeks or "sevens") from the proclamation of Cyrus to restore and build Jerusalem until the crucifixion of Christ (when Messiah was "cut off"). To gain a proper understanding of this, people should study The Chronology of Old Testament by Martin Anstey. Which means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is yet future.

You are saying that Sir Robert Anderson got it wrong?  The 69 weeks went from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Christ's DEATH?

[Ezra]

Just now, iamlamad said:

You are saying that Sir Robert Anderson got it wrong?  The 69 weeks went from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Christ's DEATH?

Yes, Robert Anderson was not a chronologist, but Martin Anstey was.  He has provided a detailed explanation as to why Ptolemy was off by 82 years, using "the Year of Man" (Anno Hominis) as the basis of his entire chronology (starting with Adam), going strictly by the Masoretic Text and the King James Bible.  If you have a chance to study the book (271 pages) I have quoted, it will give you tremendous insight. He reviews all of the chronologists, ancient and modern.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

Your maths is still out....and I was counting from cyrus.

Here is your problem notice the word until the messiah, in otherwords from cyrus untill the messiah

Daniel 9:25 
 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto (until) [Strong’s Hebrew 5704 - `ad] the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...

Until the messiah, that is the measurement that completes the 69th week. Not his cutting off.

Which means the messiah is still very much alive in the first half of the 70th week

That is your imagination, not scripture. His cutting off is verse 26. The 70th week is verse 27. Daniel himself put a gap between these two verses.

This can be PROVEN by other scriptures that show us the entire 70th week is future. Of course, you will to ignore the other scriptures.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Because it doesnt say Israel....you do realize Christ come for the jews first? Then we gentiles?

The many includes Israel. Many also includes gentiles.

You are a walking contradiction....you cant claim God never defined it and then define it as israel....make your mind up?

In the verse of mention, all it says is MANY. But if we back up, we read that the ENTIRE 70th WEEK IS FOR ISRAEL.

Do you deny this? It is beginning to seem as if you are just here to argue.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

So why do you include dan 9:27a ....christ never mentioned it....if he did then you are correct....the fact christ didnt swings more in my faviour.

Was it not you that said we need two or three witnesses?

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

WHERE did Jesus get this "abomination of Desolation?"  I will give you a hint:

Douay-Rheims Bible: 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Jesus did not mention this "covenant with many." You will have to take that up with Him.  What we do know is that the word Midst comes from the Hebrew word chetsiy  which means to divide in half. You still have not understood that one must have a whole to divide in half. It is truth anyway.

We know the HE that makes this covenant is the very same He that breaks it:  " he shall cause the sacrifice and gift offerings to cease ."

or: "he shal put downe the slayne and meat offringe. "

When we add what Paul wrote, this becomes clearer yet: the man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies. This will be the abomination. The daily sacrifices MUST cease until the temple can be cleansed. So when we examine Paul, we find out WHY the sacrifices are stopped. And it is NOT Christ that stops it, it is the abomination that stops it, just as happened with Antiochus as shown in Daniel 11:

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice: and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.

 

 

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

I want people to notice the flaw in this human logic.

The antichrist will make a covenant of sacrificial offerings between Jews and God and then break that very same sacrificial offering covenant.

Now iamlamad would have you accept , and this is where it gets interesting....that this making of the covenant of sacrificial offering is not an abomination to God??

Let that sink in....here we have the antichrist  reestablishing a covenant between Jews and God of sacrificial offerings.....and no where this is seen as an abomination to God? Relegating Christ as the only sin offering is not an abomination? 

That only ceasing this contract and causing desolation is the abomination?

This has got to be one of the most twisted scriputal interpretations, ive ever had to hear.

It's your imagination again! Can you find a scripture to PROVE the daily sacrifices the Jews will start will be an abomination? Until you do, it is only your imagination and human reasoning, VOID of scriptural backing.

Have you never read?

Ezekiel 44:11

Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

Make no mistake here: this is speaking of the millennial temple: they will again hold animal sacrifices and JESUS will approve. 

As far as we know, because scripture does not tell us, is that the Beast of Rev. 13 will make a covenant. It is only an assumption that this covenant will allow the Jews to start their daily sacrifices again. What is written is that the one that makes the covenant will STOP the sacrifices.  Therefore let's not add to scripture.

Again, your theories fail the test if scripture. You have a vivid imagination. We all understand that. But make no mistake, the entire week is future. Scripture proves that.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Quote

 I know Christ would NOT make a 7 year covenant and then break 

It does not say "break"....that is your false opinion being forced into scripture. Again adding words.

It says he will confirm a covenant....christ confirmed a covenant.

Then it says in the midst of the week he will cause the sacrifices to cease.....Christ caused the (temporal) sacrifices to be ceased. No where does one get the impression Christ breaking anything. 

Now iamlamad argues that Christ never caused any sacrfices to cease immediately.

This reasoning is simply a flawed human point of view. And fails to take into account God's point of view, which lets be honest is the ONLY point of view that matters and the inly point of view that must be looked from...

The entire point of Daniels seventy seven is Christs mission, the very goal of the seventy-weeks prophecy, God's method of fulfilling the sixfold goal of Daniel 9:24.

Viewing it as the antichrist who confirms the covenant and ceases the animal sacrifices not only fails to keep in context of the seventy sevens goal but ultimately undermines it. 

You are right. My bad. It does not say that anyone breaks this covenant. Since we don't even know what the covenant says, how can we know it is broken? 

Well, ONE WAY would be to see in Revelation what the Beast does after the abomination: he begins WAR with the saints, starting with the Jews who flee into the wilderness. It would seem VERY likely that war would be breaking the covenant. Why? Because there was no war in the first 3 1/2 years that you deny exists.

.christ confirmed a covenant. No one is denying that Christ made a covenant: we call it the New Testament made with His blood:

Matthew 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I am 100% behind you that Christ established a new covenant. But it was certainly NOT a covenant for 7 years! Where you go wrong is trying to take Christ's covenant and force it upon Daniel 9:27 - which verse is speaking of a totally DIFFERENT covenant that was, in theory, suppose to last 7 years.  Most people believe it is a PEACE agreement. But God does not tell us.

.Christ caused the (temporal) sacrifices to be ceased.  Sorry, your preconceived glasses again getting thicker: The sacrifices DID NOT CEASE . That is your imagination, and not rightly understanding the scriptures. Therefore your theory fails. It is the abomination that will cause the sacrifices to cease, and they will cease or STOP immediately. Did you not read in Daniel how it took 2300 days to cleanse the temple so they could again hold the daily sacrifices?

Now iamlamad argues that Christ never caused any sacrfices to cease immediately. Which point is absolutely TRUE. Your theory fails the test.

The complete Jewish Bible:  27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

We all know the sacrifices DID NOT STOP when Jesus died. But they WILL Stop when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies. Does anyone have a red heifer without spot of blemish? They will NEED one.

So your theory fails. In this verse, make no mistake about it, the sacrifices STOP. See? It is little things like this that your preconceived glasses prevent you from seeing: theories that just don't quite agree with a verse.

Viewing it as the antichrist who confirms the covenant and ceases the animal sacrifices not only fails to keep in context of the seventy sevens goal but ultimately undermines it.   This is simply your imagination. God has given the Antichrist 42 months and it is certainly a part of fulfilling what God wants for the 70th week. Perhaps you have also missed this verse:

Daniel 12: ⁷ The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.^[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

God will bring the holy people to their knees, so to speak, because their power (think IDF) will be crushed. They will have ZERO defense as the 10 nations enter Israel and head for Jerusalem, to wipe Israel off the map. They will finally be where ONLY GOD can save them. This is exactly where God wants them to be.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

On 2/13/2017 at 9:36 AM, iamlamad said:

There may not be another verse in the bible with so much controversy as Daniel 9:27. I challenge the readers to read this verse in these different translations to give the full meaning presented by Daniel. I highlighted parts that seem different than KJV.

J.P. Green's Literal:  27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Douay-Rheims Bible:  27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

The complete Jewish Bible:  27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

Peshitta - Lamsa Translation:  27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for seven weeks and half of seven weeks, then he shall cause the sacrifice and gift offerings to cease, and upon the horns of the altar the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue until the end of the appointed time; the city shall remain desolate.

Wycliff Bible:  27  Forsothe (Indeed) o wouk `of yeeris (a week of years) schal conferme the couenaunt (shall confirm the covenant) to many men, and the offryng and sacrifice schal faile ( offering and sacrifice shall fail) in the myddis of the wouke of yeeris (in the middle of he week of years) ; and abhomynacioun of desolacioun (an abomination of desolation) schal be in the temple, (shall be in the temple) and the desolacioun schal contynue (the desolation shall continue) til to the parformyng and ende. (till the performing and end.)

Miles Coverdale Bible:   He shall make a stronge bonde with many, for the space of a weke: and when the weke is half gone, he shal put downe the slayne and meatoffringe. And in the temple there shalbe an abhominable desolacio, till it haue destroyed all. And it is concluded, yt this waistinge shal continue vnto the ende.

Some have said that Daniel 9:27 is not talking about the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of. Yet when we see other translations, we see that Jesus was probably quoting from this verse in Daniel.  In other words, Daniel 9 certain covers this abomination of desolation. However, Daniel also wrote of it in chapter 12:

 Daniel 12:11  (Peshitta - Lamsa) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be abolished, and the abomination is given to destruction, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Young's literal:  and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

Then Daniel told us of the abomination done by Antiochus Epiphanes: This is a TYPE of what the Beast of Rev. 13 will do in our future.

Douay-Rheims Bible: Daniel 11:31:  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice: and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.

King James:  And armes shal stand on his part, and they shall pollute the Sanctuarie of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shal place the abomination that maketh desolate.

In every one of these verses, the daily sacrifice is stopped. That means, ceased: the next day there will NOT BE a sacrifice. The Complete Jewish Bible probably says it best: "put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering." How can anyone misread "put a stop to?"

Question: the theory that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is what stopped the daily sacrifices has been proposed on this forum. When we understand that the daily sacrifices DID NOT STOP when Jesus died, and did not stop when he rose from the dead, but continued on for many years, how can it be possible that anyone can still hold to that theory?  The truth is, Jesus did NOT stop the daily sacrifices: these verses tell us it is the placing of an abomination in the temple that stops the sacrifices. All Jesus did was stop the NEED for these sacrifices.

Comparing all these translations, and these verses: it is clear, there is an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease at the midpoint (halfway point) of the week. That abomination will be placed (or will walk) into the Holy of Holies, and then from that time, desolations will continue to the end.

Question: since the stopping of the daily sacrifices and the presence of the abomination of desolation are found right next to each other in one sentence, can we establish a cause and effect relationship? i think we can. The Old Testament tells us if the temple is desecrated, it must be cleansed before Sacrifices can continue again.

Now, what can we find in the New Testament that will confirm this?

Matthew 24: ¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

How can anyone with common sense deny that this is speaking of the same thing we found in Daniel? Jesus is quoting Daniel! And Jesus is answering a question about the end of the age. This end of the age is still ahead of us today.  Now let's examine this event: the conclusion from all the scriptures in Daniel is that an EVENT: the placing of an abomination in the temple, will cause the daily sacrifices to stop. And this event will be what divides the week.

Question: how in the world can an event in our future divide a week, if we don't have an entire week to divide? It would be impossible. There MUST BE an entire week in our future that can be divided into two equal halves. The scriptures prove it is an abomination that will divided the week and stop the daily sacrifices.  Jesus Himself put this abomination into our future (the end of the age).  Therefore, if it is the abomination that divided the week, THERE MUST BE A WEEK TO DIVIDE at the same time.

Then there is another point: the HE that confirms a covenant is the same HE that will break this covenant.

Question: can anyone imagine that Jesus Christ would break a covenant after 3 1/2 years? Does GOD break covenants?

It seems the scriptural evidence is overwhelming that sometime in our future, someone will enter the temple or place in the temple an abomination, and this will stop the sacrifices and will divide the week.  Paul tells us that the man of sin will accomplish this.

Comments?

Well I kind of already answered this in the Abomination of Desolation thread. I don't think the OP of that thread grasped it, so I just stayed away. Anyway, this is my studious take on the situation. VERY GOOD OP by the way. 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.

2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering

3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.

4.)Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL!!

5.)Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us ? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse 27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE an Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, and he forces this deal on all parties. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God/Jesus, the False Prophet places an IDOL/IMAGE of the Beast in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL/IMAGE or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

 

Daniel 9:27 shorter version........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns Israel, or devastates them. Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

 

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

IT MATCHES to a tee !!  I think the Abomination of Desolation is an IMAGE made like unto the Beast, that will stand in the Temple, where the Anti-Christ will demand all, rich and poor, to worship it, or DIE. 

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well I kind of already answered this in the Abomination of Desolation thread. I don't think the OP of that thread grasped it, so I just stayed away. Anyway, this is my studious take on the situation. VERY GOOD OP by the way. 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.

2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering

3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.

4.)Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL!!

5.)Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us ? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse 27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE an Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, and he forces this deal on all parties. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God/Jesus, the False Prophet places an IDOL/IMAGE of the Beast in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL/IMAGE or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

 

Daniel 9:27 shorter version........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns Israel, or devastates them. Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

 

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

IT MATCHES to a tee !!  I think the Abomination of Desolation is an IMAGE made like unto the Beast, that will stand in the Temple, where the Anti-Christ will demand all, rich and poor, to worship it, or DIE. 

 

I believe before an image is placed in the temple, the man of sin will walk into the temple, and into the Holy of Holies and tell the world HE is GOD! (How could any human being be so silly?) Then, he will place his image there.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Please dont try make Christ ignorant of scripture.

 

Perhaps he read His KJV?

Of course He was not ignorant of scripture.  But I doubt seriously if He had a copy of the Tanakh in his possession. 

On the other hand, I doubt if He understood the 70th week the way you understand it.