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Could the antichrist be a Muslim


TheMatrixHasU71

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The passage from II Thessalonians 2 goes like this.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

 

His coming and our gathering to Him, attached together again, and Paul saying not to be bothered by anyone saying they missed it because when He comes He will gather believers.

 

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

Don't be deceived, because that Day (being the Day He comes and gathers from the previous verses)  won't happen until the great apostasy has happened, and the anti-christ is revealed.  Meaning He isn't coming and gathering anyone before that, which at the very earliest puts it at the midway point of the 7 years.  The other passages I posted tell us exactly when, so it isn't supposed to be a surprise.

God bless

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Very simple! It means that the living saints will not precede or go before the dead saints, but that both will go together to meet the Lord in the air

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9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The passage from II Thessalonians 2 goes like this.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Here Paul is setting the THEME of this passage: it is the gathering: as shown in 1 Thes 4.

His coming and our gathering to Him, attached together again, and Paul saying not to be bothered by anyone saying they missed it because when He comes He will gather believers.

Here I disagree. Paul had taught them in person that they would be out before the Day of the Lord comes. Please take note, in 1 Thes 5 Paul mentions the Day of the Lord, not the Day of Christ. Some texts use "Day of the Lord" here in 2 Thes. Here Paul is telling them not to be worried that the Day of the Lord has come and they are in it. Of course they would be upset, because Paul told them in person that they would be raptured before the DAY comes.

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

  "That day" here is the "Day of the Lord." It is the "Day of the Lord" that will not come until the departing [rapture] comes first  - exactly the same order Paul gives us in 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

Don't be deceived, because that Day (being the Day He comes and gathers from the previous verses) (NO! Being the "Day of the Lord" or "the Day of His wrath" as shown to us at the 6th seal.) won't happen until the great apostasy has happened, and the anti-christ is revealed.  (The Antichrist cannot be revealed until the one restraining his revealing has departed as in RAPTURE) Meaning He isn't coming and gathering anyone before that (meaning the departing comes FIRST), which at the very earliest puts it at the midway point of the 7 years.  The other passages I posted tell us exactly when, so it isn't supposed to be a surprise.

God bless

It is sad. Paul wrote to let now one deceive us. I think you are miles off on the intent of the author here. There are things in this passage that are absolutes:

1. In Paul's argument - in verse 3 the antichrist IS (meaning has been) revealed. Paul then shows us what he will do when he is revealed.  Therefore, point 2: 

2. Whatever Paul meant by his word "apostasy" it can be nothing else than the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

Does a "falling away" fit the bill for something restraining being "take out of the way?"  No, not even close.

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19 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Lol, well ,that is an interesting breakdown, you kinda jump right over the part that says we who are alive and remain UNTIL the Coming of the Lord, will not precede those who are already deceased.  There is nothing between there about an exit prior to this, nor will you find any instance of this event being spoken of that is not specific about it being at His coming.

The best depiction of the "rapture" as some insist on calling it, is from Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

Again in this passage, it states that it is at His coming.  And the very next verse attaches the symbol of the thief to it, which appears in Revelation 16.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

I am coming as a thief, in quotations.  We know who is coming, and we know when, just prior to Armageddon.

God bless

Sorry, but Hazzard was right on, but you are far off.  Sorry again, but the rapture is not to be found anywhere in the Olivet discourse; not in Matthew, not in Mark, and Not in Luke.

A coming is a coming. That means leaving heaven and heading for earth. However, in the next coming, Jesus will not come all the way, and will not touch down: the bride of Christ will meet Him in the air.  OF COURSE the rapture is a coming. Paul tells us it is a coming. But it will NOT be His Rev. 19 coming.  It will be just before the 6th seal. Paul's "sudden Destruction" will be the earthquake at the 6th seal.  The Bride will not be here for that earthquake, for God has NOT set an appointment.

Why is it people want to set their OWN appointment? That seems very silly. God has made a way of escape, yet so many wish to deny this way of escape.

This is not to deny His THIRD coming as shown in Revelation 19. This coming will be AFTER those days of great tribulation.  This coming also will be as a thief. NO ONE will know the day or hour. It will be DARKNESS over the earth, when suddenly the sky will light as as lightning. It will be HIM.

So: TWO COMINGS to go, for TWO different purposes.

By the way, at the pretrib rapture, we WILL wait for the dead in Christ to rise first, but those alive and in Christ will be caught up within a millisecond or less after the dead in Christ. But the trigger for this will be HIS COMING. Then the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. This is the exact order shown to us in Revelation.

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21 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I'll give you credit for at least saying what all the others infer, but unfortunately you are in for a big surprise.  You should read over all the references from Paul or anyone else, they all say this will happen at His coming.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel - and the rapture is included. Neither will I be ashamed when the Day of His wrath begins (see the 6th seal). Neither I nor any of the Bride of Christ will be here. I will not be surprised. God is pretrib.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am not ashamed of the Gospel - and the rapture is included. Neither will I be ashamed when the Day of His wrath begins (see the 6th seal). Neither I nor any of the Bride of Christ will be here. I will not be surprised. God is pretrib.

 

The 6th seal is not pre-trib, so we actually agree on the when, and it is after the 6th seal we are gathered.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So: TWO COMINGS to go, for TWO different purposes.

 

Absolutely zero scriptural support for this statement.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is sad. Paul wrote to let now one deceive us. I think you are miles off on the intent of the author here. There are things in this passage that are absolutes:

1. In Paul's argument - in verse 3 the antichrist IS (meaning has been) revealed. Paul then shows us what he will do when he is revealed.  Therefore, point 2: 

2. Whatever Paul meant by his word "apostasy" it can be nothing else than the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

Does a "falling away" fit the bill for something restraining being "take out of the way?"  No, not even close.

 

Sorry, but that is not proper reading comprehension.  A writer does not give you a topic in the first sentence and then refer to some other topic after it.  The day Paul is speaking of in the first sentence includes both His coming and the gathering, and then continues to speak about it in the following sentences.  Paul specifically says that this day will not come before the falling away or the anti-christ is revealed, and that is perfectly clear in the passage.

As far as the apostasy, I never suggested it had anything to do with the restrainer.  The apostasy is in reference to people walking away from faith in God, and there is no other group that fits that description other than believers.  One cannot walk away from faith in something they never had faith in, so I'm not following you at all on this.

God bless

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On 5/25/2017 at 0:19 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"I'm not saying it is, just pointing out that scriptural focus is on Mesopotamia in the region of Babylon. The beast rises from that area. Where ISIS arose."

 

You are correct .... the rising will be in the northern vestiges of Iraq

The ancient land of Magog [northwestern Iraq] [Ezekiel 38]

That may be. It's funny, you know...I have heard many say Gog and Magog come from any number of regions. I wish there was some solid evidence for their location. I just read a piece on the Great Wall of China that stated the first and most ancient walls were built to protect from attacks from Mongols and Gog and Magog. This would put Magog in the far north east. Not a big deal to me where Gog and Magog reside, it just would be interesting to know for sure.

 

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On 5/25/2017 at 7:24 PM, iamlamad said:

Believers will end up separating themselves according to this verse. Those that believe this verse will pray that they will be found worthy to escape what is coming.  They believe that the escape planned by God will be the pretrib rapture.

On the other hand, there are many that believe in Jesus but just don't believe God has planned a way of escape before the days of tribulation.  What else can God do when people will not believe His word?   Others that believe in Jesus Christ will separate themselves because they believe that grace covers all sins. Some today believe this so fully they believe 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, so they quit confessing their sins to God.  Therefore I don't believe you have it right. Pretrib demands nothing. But they do believe Luke 21:36.  There is no arrogance in believing God's word.  If some believers wish to be left behind, that is their business. Perhaps God will give them what they wish.

The passage in question: 

Luke 21

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

From the above verse only when the signs occur AND Jesus comes in the clouds, and everyone sees Him, is our redemption near. Not before nor after. The above is clear and irrefutable fact of when and how our redemption comes. Pretrib is unable to cite evidence such as the above to prove two separate 2nd comings of Christ. This is the one and only 2nd coming of Jesus and parallels the description of Jesus coming in Rev 19:

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

 The above passage is the full description of Jesus statement in Luke 21, "...they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." It is not a post 2nd coming appearance.

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees.30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Now here Jesus says, "...escape ALL that is about to happen..." I think we can see what "ALL' means here. The issue comes with this, "...ESCAPE all that is about to happen..." What is that 'escape'? Its certainly not described here, nor anywhere else I know of. Pretrib demands a pre-2nd coming to solve the issue.  Escape in this passage simply means to 'flee'. This look much more like individual action to avoid certain circumstances and has no connotation of either a gathering or a catching away.

Pretrib also avoids the previous to the 'escape' verse. Luke 21:35, "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth." Now either this verse is not true or Jesus lied and certain groups know much more that the God of heaven. Its coming on ALL those ALIVE on the WHOLE earth. There is no early exit.

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