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Could the antichrist be a Muslim


TheMatrixHasU71

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1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

And how will He bring with Him ?

Just as He Says He Will >>>
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise;"
 
YHWH'S WORD remains TRUTH, unchanged. 
 
Why those other things added that break His Word, and need a change in His Word,  corrupting it ? (like Babylon)
 
Just believe His Word. 
Simple.
 

Not quite so simple.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Paul is telling us that when a believer dies, their SPIRIT and SOUL goes to heaven to be with the Lord.
 
So when Jesus comes He will bring with Him the SPIRITS (Every spirit will have a soul) of those who have died in Christ. They will be coming to get their new resurrection body, which will be their OLD body resurrected but changed.
 
We are spirit beings. We only live in a flesh and blood body for our short season on earth.
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1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

Again you directly contradict the quoted Scripture.   Why ?  Is some false doctrine or myth or fable more important than Scripture ? (no)

You are right on: he teaches "false doctrine" and myths. I just ignore his posts.

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5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

John 14: 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

First, when Jesus says this to His disciples where are they?  On earth or in the clouds?  It makes absolutely no sense for Him to tell them He will come again to a place other than where He has been with them, especially when He is going to heaven to prepare them a place and saying He will come again.  They are standing on earth, you are talking yourself out of something obvious.  The last part of the verse is the scripture that you say I didn't have.  Where He is, is where we will be, here is more scripture to support it.

John 12:26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

As for I Thessalonians 4, look at this very carefully.

I Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Notice what it says there in verse 14, who does He bring with Him?  The deceased people, no mention of the living yet, right?  What He is bringing with Him are the great multitude, the armies from heaven.

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Those who are alive and remain until His coming do not precede the dead, because the dead follow Him out of heaven just like it says in verse 14.

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The Lord descends with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet.... the dead rise first.  So again, bringing angels and the great multitude, archangels are fighters.

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Then the living are caught up (harpazo) to meet Him in the air.  And again, the same as illustrated above, we shall always be with Him.  Meaning the same thing as the other passages, wherever He goes, we go.  And He is coming to earth to vanquish the enemy, right where He told the disciples He would come again, the earth.  I agree with you by the way, John 14 and I Thessalonians 4 fit like a glove, just not the glove you have been suggesting.  There is not one passage concerning the gathering / catching away that does not include His coming, that should tell you all you need to know.

Show me one that doesn't then.

God bless

I have heard this argument over and over. It does not hold water.

If you insist that His coming is after the 70th week has finished, please tell us all WHERE He will be  - say  - 3.5 years BEFORE His coming at the end?

By the way, WHERE is he in Rev. 19, before verse 11?

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
 
In this verse, what is He returning FROM?
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10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Brother don't you know you can highlight, then click on QUOTE and answer this way? Just wondering. The words of the Scriptures here are crystal clear, thus my remarks...Can't you read, meaning to point to the obviousness of the scriptures.

It is right there, I highlight what I choose to highlight, because THEIR is irrelevant to the point. We know its THEIR KINGDOM, the Latter Time is the "Marker". What is the Latter Time? Well since Greece is still here and has been for over 2500 years, the LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM is now. I don't even understand any contextual situation where anyone could even surmise anything else. This is the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus who MEANS NOTHING. 

No it is NOT all about Alexander the Great and Persia. He was referring to the LATTER TIME of the Four Generals Kingdoms when TRANSGRESSIONS ARE COME FULL....Do you not understand that is Gods Bowls of Wrath? Go read about Israel being sent into bondage in Egypt, do you know why they weren't just give Canaan straight away? God says because their Sins had not yet come FULL !! Its the same thing, Gods Bowls of Wrath must come FULL. And that is what In the Later Time when Transgressions are Come Full means. Its obvious. I lay it out, if people will only stop and think it through. Some line that says all were transgressors is MEANINGLESS....Its when Transgressions are come FULL !! Reread it. You saying my theory pulls something out of context, when the vast majority of Christendom agrees with me, and you refuse to acknowledge that the Prince of princes is Jesus, is kind of nonsensical in reality.

Antiochus sir is to me, is just way out their in left field, he is not living in the end times, and he has nothing to do with this prophecy. You have a FEW PEOPLE that agree with you, but it makes zero sense to be honest.

This is about the Anti-Chris coming against Jesus ad being destroyed by the Holy Spirit. Its not debatable.

I imagine you are wrong here.....I don't care what others do, don't do, etc. etc. etc. If they do not understand this is the Anti-Christ then that's on them, not me. That doesn't change the facts.

He is nothing....Daniel 8 is about the Anti-Christ coming against Jesus, thus your "TYPE" is irrelevant because he is not mentioned.

Maybe you don't need to know, suite yourself. You really think Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. I don't need to say anything else really.

You can't get Daniel 8 correct. That throws you off kilter. You try way yonder too hard. Settle down, and wait upon the Lord.

I understand what's of God and not of God....that's a bonus we get when we get filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is not even worthy of answering to be truthful. You ACTUALLY think Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. 

Yea......you keep on believing as you will, I choose to follow the Holy Spirit, not men.  I see your type coming from a mile away sir. Been seeing your type for 30 years. I see all of your trendy ideas come to nought time after time, year after year. 

 

"Brother don't you know you can highlight, then click on QUOTE and answer this way?"

When I highlight and click on quote, I see nothing quoted: just an empty field. If I just click on quote, I see the entire message. I expected to see what I highlighted in the window, but did not.

"The words of the Scriptures here are crystal clear"  I agree. But we disagree on the Author's intent. I know the goat with the one large horn was to represent Alexander the Great. I could post numerous commentators on that.  From history we can even find the letter Alexander sent to Darius. We can read about his great battle with this leader of Persia. The ram represents Persia. So we can pinpoint exactly the point in time that Daniel was writing about.

Since you think this is talking about our future, please point to a specific verse where you think Daniel switches from Alexander's four Generals (the Diadochi) and their time, to our future.

For example, in Dan. 11, I think Daniel switches from Antiochus to our future Beast in verse 36.

Or do you imagine that this entire chapter is about our future?

"when TRANSGRESSIONS ARE COME FULL....Do you not understand that is Gods Bowls of Wrath?"

There was a time in what we now call Israel when God waited until their transgressions came to the full, and then He had Israel take them out. The Diadochi from the bible point of view was not about the physical land of Greece we see today. It was mostly about Seleucus and the land area he held, because he held the land area of Israel. Antiochus was written of because of his actions against Israel. By Antiochus Epiphanes time the Selecuid Dynasty was way down in size, and near its end. When Daniel wrote "when transgressions are come to the full" he may well have been talking about the terrible things Antiochus Epiphanes did. So, NO, I don't see this as God's bowls of wrath. You are taking verses FAR FAR out of their context.

"you refuse to acknowledge that the Prince of princes is Jesus"   Are you saying that Jesus is NOT the same, yesterday, today and forever? Could He not be referred to as the Prince of Princes before He came to be born of a virgin? By the way, this is probably the strongest part of your argument.

I am out of time. Work is calling. I will finish later.

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"For example, in Dan. 11, I think Daniel switches from Antiochus to our future Beast in verse 36."

 

This is true .... from Antiochus IV in Daniel 11:21-35 to the beast in Daniel 11:36

The scriptures do not discuss the ensuing time frame between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel and the beginning of the 70th still to come 

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21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why is it you SKIP the word "their?"

Quote

(Sorry, I tried to manually put in "quote =Revelation Man" and it did not work. Neither will it allow me to erase the above quote now.)


Quote by Revelation man:
It is right there, I highlight what I choose to highlight, because THEIR is irrelevant to the point. We know its THEIR KINGDOM, the Latter Time is the "Marker". What is the Latter Time? Well since Greece is still here and has been for over 2500 years, the LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM is now. I don't even understand any contextual situation where anyone could even surmise anything else. This is the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus who MEANS NOTHING.

End quote

Sorry, but "their" IS the point! "Their" refers to the days the four generals and their empires/dynasties that were in existence right after Alexander's death: i.e. the Diadochi. In fact, Daniel zeros in on the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, NOT some Beast in our future.  Why? Because of the word "THEIR!"

Now let's read it in context:

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

There can be ZERO doubt verse 22 is speaking of the Diadochi: the time frame of the death of Alexander the Great and when his four generals took over the kingdom.  And in verse 23, "in the latter time of their kingdom" MUST (again with zero doubt) refer right back to the "four kingdoms " of verse 22. It can refer to nothing else.

If you wish to bring in "latter time" then it MUST BE the "latter time" of THEIR Kingdom: i.e. the Diadochi, and in particular the Seleucid empire. You imagine that since Greece is still here, it must refer to the future. Sorry, WRONG! This was speaking of the dynasties / empires of the four generals: ALL who disappeared long ago. One was taken over by another of the four, but the other three were all conquered by Rome. You are simply mistaken in your thinking as to the intent of the Author.

Coffman Commentary:  When the transgressors are come to the full…
(
Daniel 8:23). This is a reference to the transgressions of Israel. It was the climax of such sins that led to God's permission for such an evil power as Antiochus to rise up.

John Gill Commentary: a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall
stand up;
meaning Antiochus; as is generally agreed, both by Jewish and Christian interpreters, and to whom these characters agree:

Geneva Study Bible:  8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of h fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

(h) Noting that this Antiochus was impudent and cruel, and also crafty so that he could not be deceived.

David Guzik Commentary:

a. In the latter time of their kingdom: The prophecy in this passage reads equally true of both Antiochus and Antichrist. This is an example of a prophetic passage that has both a near and far fulfillment.

b. Having fierce features: Antiochus Epiphanes was known for his cruel brutality; this will also become the legacy of the coming Antichrist.  (Emphasis added)

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentaries:

23. transgressors are come to the full--This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era. (Emphasis added)

Matthew Henry Commentary: 

2. Concerning Antiochus, and his oppression of the Jews. This is said to be in the latter time of the kingdom of the Greeks, when the transgressors are come to the full (Daniel 8:23); that is, when the degenerate Jews have filled up the measure of their iniquity, and are ripe for this destruction, so that God cannot in honour bear with them any longer then shall stand up this king,

Scofield Reference:

2. Concerning Antiochus, and his oppression of the Jews. This is said to be in the latter time of the kingdom of the Greeks, when the transgressors are come to the full (Daniel 8:23); that is, when the degenerate Jews have filled up the measure of their iniquity, and are ripe for this destruction, so that God cannot in honour bear with them any longer then shall stand up this king,

John Wesley notes:

Verse 23
In the latter time - When they were come to the height, and beginning to decline. When the transgressors - When the Jews were grown to an excess of wickedness, then God suffered Antiochus to persecute them. Dark sentences - Full of subtilty: such all histories declare Antiochus to be.

Benson Commentary:

So evident it is that the transgressors were come to the full, and that it was in the latter time of the Macedonian empire, when what follows took place. A king of fierce countenance shall stand up — This is a very just character of Antiochus, according to Diodorus, Polybius, and all the historians.

Barne's Notes:

And in the latter time of their kingdom - When it shall be drawing to an end. All these powers were ultimately absorbed in the Roman power; and the meaning here is, that taking the time from the period of their formation - the division of the empire after the battle of Ipsus (see the notes at Daniel 8:8), until the time when all would be swallowed up in the Roman dominion, what is here stated - to wit, the rise of Antiochus - would be in the latter portion of that period.

Cambridge Bible Study notes:

23. in the latter time of their kingdom] in the closing period of the rule of the Diadochi (which the author pictures as brought altogether to an end at the death of Antiochus).


Pulpit Commentary:

The whole analogy of Scripture leads us to look at the iniquity of the people of God being the cause of evil befalling them. Certainly immediately before the persecution inflicted on the Jews by Antiochus, the progress of the unbelieving Hellenizing party had been very great, as we see by 1 Macc. 1:13-16. It was "like people, like priest;" the people devoted themselves to Grecian games with all their heathen associations, and strove to hide their Hebrew origin and the covenant of their faith, and high priests were ready to abet their practices. A king of fierce countenance; "strong of countenance." This refers to courage and success in war. Thus Amaziah (2 Kings 14:8), when he wishes to challenge Joash King of Israel, desires to "look in his face." Epiphanes' countenance was one that could successfully stand a hostile meeting.

Your theory has a tiny bit of merit by commentaries, but is vastly outnumbered by the others claiming this is about Antiochus.

Sorry, but there is simply no way this can refer to anyone future to us today, except by some stretch of imagination, a second meaning, which one commentary hinted at.

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On 5/30/2017 at 5:23 PM, iamlamad said:

I see it as Muslims anywhere they go refusing to mix in. Islam simply WILL NOT MIX with any other people. This is happening all over Europe now.

That too. But some prophecies can have a dual nature to them. This too could have a certain spiritual element

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Revelation Man wrote,

he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;(Jesus Christ...Capital P) but he shall be broken without hand. { It is NOT Antiochus, never has been, never will be and CAN'T BE. } 

Your Argument it seems is that it MUST BE after Jesus became incarnate. I disagree.

Benson Commentary:

He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes — He shall exalt himself against the true God, the Lord of heaven and earth, abolishing his worship, and setting up idolatry in its stead. But he shall be broken without hand — By an immediate judgment of God. God struck him with a noisome disease, attended with horrible torments both of body and mind:

Barnes Notes:

He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes - Notes, Daniel 8:11. Against God, the ruler over the kings of the earth.

Matthew Poole's Commentary:

He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes: all this you find verified of him in the Maccabees and Josephus. He fought against God in removing the high priest, affronting God’s laws, profaning God’s worship, name, and temple, and setting up the image and worship of Jupiter there.

Gill's Commentary:

he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; not the high priest, as Grotius; nor Michael, as Aben Ezra; but God himself, as Saadiah and Jacchiades; who is King of kings, and Lord of lords, the only Pontentate, to whom all the princes above and below are subject; him Antiochus stood up against, when he profaned his temple at Jerusalem, forbid his worship, persecuted and destroyed his people, and set up the image of Jupiter in his house:

Geneva Study Bible:

(n) Meaning, against God.

Cambridge Study Bible:

the Prince of princes] i.e. God, the ‘prince of the host’

Pulpit Commentary:

He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes. The Greek versions, as above observed, have instead of this, ἐπὶ ἀπωλείας ἀνδρῶν στήσεται - a phrase that might be a rendering of לשחת רבבים. The Massoretic text here seems the preferable. Antiochus had certainly risen up against God, the "Prince of princes," or, as the Peshitta renders, "Ruler of rulers."

Your Argument is in direct conflict with every commentary on "Prince of princes."

It seems for the most part, the commentaries are almost all on the side of this portion of scripture being about Antiochus.

I personally cannot see it being about anyone else IN CONTEXT. We will just end up disagreeing on this point.

Since your whole endtime scenario is built using this as an end time scripture, much of what you write will be off.

 

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have heard this argument over and over. It does not hold water.

 

If that was true then you could show your separate event.  The fact is that every single time the gathering/ catching away is spoken of it is included with His coming.  If not, show me the passage that doesn't.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you insist that His coming is after the 70th week has finished, please tell us all WHERE He will be  - say  - 3.5 years BEFORE His coming at the end?

 

When did I say His coming is after the 70th week?  Is Armageddon during the 70th week or not?  As for where He will be prior to His coming, right here.

 

Revelation 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, WHERE is he in Rev. 19, before verse 11?

 

See above, and this is what follows.  Notice anything similar to what happens with the fall of Babylon?

 

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
 
In this verse, what is He returning FROM?

 

It's a parable about the faithful servant and the wicked servant, and you are taking that one verse out of context and not applying the entire passage.

 

Luke 12:35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

 

He is speaking about His coming, and once again attaches the symbol of the thief to it.  Who is He speaking to?

 

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

 

His disciples are who He is speaking to, are you implying that though they have been dead and with Him all this time that they were left out of the wedding?  Peter isn't certain if the parable applies only to them, or to everyone, so by your rendering they are not invited to the wedding.  On top of that, if you think that the marriage supper takes place before the end, then you are excluding His children that still remain on earth, specifically the Jewish remnant.  Hosea makes it clear that you are wrong about that.

 

Hosea 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the Lord,
“That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’

 

Hosea 2:19 “I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me
In righteousness and justice,
In lovingkindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
And you shall know the Lord.

 

All believers will be part of the bride, so your wedding can't take place until the very end.

God bless

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5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Again you directly contradict the quoted Scripture.   Why ?  Is some false doctrine or myth or fable more important than Scripture ? (no)

 

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.

 

Simple, truth, straight from Jesus' lips.  Is some false doctrine or myth or fable more important than scripture to you?

God bless

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