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notsolostsoul

story of Job, a few things that never sat right with me.

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Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet? Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost? In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better? Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again. How is this loving, kind, just or righteous? It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain?

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Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet? Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost? In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better? Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again. How is this loving, kind, just or righteous? It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain?

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6 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet....
Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost....

In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better....

Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined....
and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again....

How is this loving, kind, just or righteous....
It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain....

:sherlock:

Satan

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 (Berean Study Bible)

Is The Accuser Of The Brethren

One day the members of the heavenly courta came again to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. “Where have you come from?” the Lord asked Satan.

Satan answered the Lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”

Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause.”

Satan replied to the Lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

“All right, do with him as you please,” the Lord said to Satan. “But spare his life.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. Job 2:1-7 (New Living Translation)

:emot-heartbeat:

I'll

Now the day came when Job’s sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, and a messenger came to Job, saying, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing beside them, and the Sabeans swooped down and carried them all away, and they killed the servants with the sword! And I – only I alone – escaped to tell you!”

While this one was still speaking, another messenger arrived and said, “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and the servants – it has consumed them! And I – only I alone – escaped to tell you!”

While this one was still speaking another messenger arrived and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and carried them all away, and they killed the servants with the sword! And I – only I alone – escaped to tell you!”

While this one was still speaking another messenger arrived and said, “Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, and suddenly a great wind swept across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they died! And I – only I alone – escaped to tell you!”

Then Job got up and tore his robe. He shaved his head, and then he threw himself down with his face to the ground. He said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will return there. The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. May the name of the Lord be blessed!” In all this Job did not sin, nor did he charge God with moral impropriety. Job 1:13-22 (NET Bible)

Let God

"But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:36 (New American Standard Bible)

Answer These Questions

Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm.

"Who is this that belittles my advice with words that do not show any knowledge about it?

Brace yourself like a man! I will ask you, and you will teach me.

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have such insight.

Who determined its dimensions? Certainly, you know! Who stretched a measuring line over it?

On what were its footings sunk? Who laid its cornerstone

when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

"Who shut the sea behind gates when it burst through and came out of the womb,

when I clothed it with clouds and wrapped it up in dark clouds,

when I set a limit for it and put up bars and gates,

when I said, 'You may come this far but no farther. Here your proud waves will stop'?

"Have you ever given orders to the morning or assigned a place for the dawn

so that it could grab the earth by its edges and shake wicked people out of it?

The earth changes like clay stamped by a seal, and parts of it stand out like [folds in] clothing.

Wicked people are deprived of their light, and an arm raised in victory is broken.

Have you gone to the springs in the sea or walked through the valleys of the ocean depths?

Have the gateways to death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gateways to total darkness?

Have you even considered how wide the earth is? Tell me, if you know all of this!

"What is the way to the place where light lives? Where is the home of darkness

so that you may lead it to its territory, so that you may know the path to its home?

You must know because you were born then and have lived such a long time!

Have you been to the warehouses where snow is stored or seen the warehouses for hail

that I have stored up for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war?

Which is the way to the place where light is scattered and the east wind is spread across the earth?

"Who made a channel for the flooding rains and a path for the thunderstorms

to bring rain on a land where no one lives, on a desert where there are no humans,

to saturate the desolate wasteland in order to make it sprout with grass?

Does the rain have a father? Who gave birth to the dewdrops?

From whose womb came the ice, and who has given birth to the frost in the air?

The water hardens like a stone, and the surface of the ocean freezes over.

"Can you connect the chains of the constellation Pleiades or untie the ropes of Orion?

Can you bring out the constellations at the right time or guide Ursa Major with its cubs?

Do you know the laws of the sky or make them rule the earth?

Can you call to the clouds and have a flood of water cover you?

Can you send lightning flashes so that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?

Who put wisdom in the heart or gave understanding to the mind?

Who is wise enough to count the clouds or pour out the water jars of heaven

when the dirt hardens into clumps and the soil clings together?

"Can you hunt prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of her cubs

as they crouch in their dens and lie ready to ambush from their lairs?

"Who provides food for the crow when its young ones cry to God and wander around in need of food? Job 38 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

~

Be

But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (American King James Version)

Blessed

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 (New Heart English Bible)

Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

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6 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet? Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost? In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better? Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again. How is this loving, kind, just or righteous? It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain?

The answer lies in a statement made by Jesus while he was here.  He said that the old testament scriptures were about him.

 

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7 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet?

Job is a story with a lesson behind it.

Its about keeping Faith= faithfulness in God no matter what

I do believe the story of Job its about never loosing our faith=faithfulness in God and His word, no matter what happens, no matter what our friend or fiends say,  and  no matter what happens, to just keep our eyes and hearts focused on God and trusting in Him no matter what happens.

Where Jobs children good and faithful to God like Job was?

The fact that Job lost his children, it does not say that that the children were good like Job was good, the children were partying and drinking wine, when they died.  It is quite factual that we reap what we sow, and when we live a life that is worldly, we also get worldly results. If our parents are good and faithful to the Lord, it does not give the children license to live like the world does and not have any repercussions to them and be protected just because their parents are good and they are not.

 

Remaining faithful to God, whether in good or bad circumstances is what I take from the Story of Job. And because of Jobs continuous faithfulness even in the hardest times of his life, God helped him overcome and blessed him for his faithfulness.

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This is an interesting read which might help you to understand that Job's sin was his belief in his own righteousness, apart from GOD.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet? Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost? In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better? Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again. How is this loving, kind, just or righteous? It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain?

Many people have issues with this and it comes from the false understanding that God did anything. God simply removed his protection over Job and his family and Satan did the rest. When Satan spoke to God about Job he was actually saying that all mankind is superficial and can't have any faith for faith's sake.  That, if it were not for God's cloak of protection, we wouldn't worship anything at all.  He was saying that we would never do anything without a reward. He was challenging man and not God, at that time.  It is the same thing as saying that someones wife would not love him if he were suddenly incapable of providing for them. He was calling out all gods children as being shallow and without merit. He was insulting humanity and God let humanity prove itself.

God allowed Job to prove Satan wrong and in doing so taught the devil a lesson about the inherent virtue within men. There is an inherit quality within all men's souls that allows him to process that which is going on around him, that no one, even Satan, himself can breach.  Satan picked Job because he was strong in his faith and God knew, beforehand that Job would have the strength to endure whatever the Devil could send his way. God also knew that what Job would loose in this encounter would be restored to him seven fold. He also knew that those loved one's who would be taken, Job would see again in Heaven, along with those loved ones who he gained after this ordeal, so he was not loosing anything because of this, other than the time it took for this to transpires.

This was no wager, because one has to have something to loose in order for it to be so. This was about an arrogant braggart (Satan) who bit off more than he could chew and God allowed those who Satan insulted (Humanity) to slam dunk Satan, himself send him on his way.  In a way  Job stood for all mankind that day and showed Satan the steel that humanity is made of and in so doing showed what we all are made from. That's a testimony of and for all of us who believe in God. Satan failed, once again and humanity was exalted because of it.

Edited by Churchmouse

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Dear notsolostsoul,

You are asking very good questions. I am not sure I can answer to your satisfaction, but as I have extensively studied the book of Job, I will make an attempt.

First, there are some scholars that deem the Book of Job just an allegorical story. If that is true, that means the book is a morality play. But even if it IS true, it is still a morality play and your questions remain.

Second, a careful reading of the first couple of chapters indicate very clearly that Job is a righteous man and is very concerned about the spiritual condition of his children....so he sacrifices for them to maintain favor with God. Right there is a problem with Job's faith. Though a man of great faith and prayer, in the final analysis, God requires sacrifice from the individual on his own behalf. Since this is before Christ, God expected Job's children to sacrifice for their own spiritual well-being. We are not told of their spiritual state, so their deaths, inspired by Satan left them to stand before God based upon their own faith. One hopes they all served God and that God took them home with him...but we cannot know for sure.

God was proud of Job because of Job's faith and loyalty. Satan was not impressed and accused God of favoritism and basically implied that true faith was not possible from humans. He did have evidence, after all, that humans would not obey God. That evidence was Adam and Eve. When they sinned, it cost them something that God had given them....dominion over the earth. In this case, Satan did not care about Job. What he was after was to invalidate ANYONE from having faith in God. If Satan was able to do that, then no other human would ever serve God as a result. Thus Satan would gain reputation and God would be discredited as the Supreme Creator.

As a point of order, it was not God who made the bet, but Satan. God accepted the wager, not because He had anything to win, but because He knew Job's heart and He knew Job would stand up under what was to come. Later on, in the Epistles, James tells us that the trial of our faith works patience and other good qualities in us, so we should not faint.

At this point, let me stand up for God for a moment. He IS the Creator. If we truly believe that, then we must believe that He has the right to Create or Destroy as HE sees fit. He has the right to test us because He created us. The Bible is the written record of many results of God's tests of humans. Many failed those tests. David failed many of his tests, but God still called him a man after His own heart. Why? Because David prayed and allowed God to change him. David was consistently asking God for help and consistently depended upon God. So when David failed, David repented to God, sacrificed to God and was reconciled to God. David got it! God wants us to be continually reconciled to Himself.

Now, to continue with Job. In accepting Satan's wager, God place limits on what Satan could do. This is an important point, because God always places limits on what Satan can do....especially to us. When Job began to suffer, even Job's wife told him to curse God and die. Job maintained his faith in spite of all the horrific circumstances that Satan visited upon him. Please note, God did not do any of these things to Job. We can question why God allowed this, but we have to remember what was at stake: whether any man could have true, unshakeable faith in God. If Satan wins the wager, he gains standing. If God wins, Satan remains a defeated foe.

From Job's perspective, there was no eternal consideration at first. But later on, after things got much worth, Job states his faith in that he knows that his redeemer lives and basically says he will never deny him. So Job never really knows what a crucial part he plays in this story. But, as God knew, Job ultimately comes through.

Yes, Job makes some errors based upon the false comfort of his friends. But, in the end, after a face to face confrontation with God, Job is restored. God's blessing on Job's life was not meant to "replace" what he had lost. But IT WAS intended to indicate that no man who has lost anything in the service of God will go unrewarded. Job just happened to receive it while he was still alive.

Yes, this is a difficult book. Yes, there are still questions that can be asked of God. For my part, I am willing to ask God to help me achieve the same kind of faith that Job had. Though I am curious about God's motives, I have determined that I will take Job at face value and defer the discussion of motives until I can talk with both God and Job in heaven.

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12 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man

Therein lies the rub. Job might have been comparatively "good," but there is no such thing as a good man. We are all sinners, dirtied and broken by our own choices. Job, too, was a sinner. The basic question of "why does a loving God allow pain/sin etc." is an egotistical one; humans assume that if they mostly follow the law, don't do anything too bad (I.E. stealing, murder etc.) they must be "good" people and so it's God's fault if bad things happen to them.

The real question should be why does a perfect, holy, righteous God not wipe us from the face of existence because of our countless sins.

https://youtu.be/7Ba1qIrzFEc

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13 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Why would God mess up the life of a good man he himself favored, all for a bet? Why does God believe that replacing in abundance what was lost fulfills the actual lost? In particular, how does he figure replacing the lost kids with new kids is better? Does God truly care so little for man that he allows him to be ruined and broken and then just be like oh well here, here are some new ones, all is well again. How is this loving, kind, just or righteous? It seems more selfish and cruel. It was all for a bet. Can anyone explain?

God tried Job's heart.  It was God who boasted about righteous Job.  Satan said that he only served God because everything was going well for him.  So God allowed satan to afflict Job and take away all he had, but he was not allowed to take his life.  Then he sent in Job's 3 friends who accused him of being wicked or else God would not be punishing him this way.    Such accusations are straight from satan, the accuser of the brethren.  Finally Job's wife told him he should just curse God and die.  (That way she wouldn't have to watch him suffer. ) The miracle is that Job kept her around after she did that!.  

What Job did wrong was told by Elihu, the young guy who had kept silent during all the rants.  Job wan't entirely wrong when he said he hadn't done anything to deserve this..   After all, it was God who had declared that he was righteous.  But then he questions God--Doesn't He see that I am righteous?.  And he continues to justify himself.  That is where he went wrong. Job 32:2  Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God.

Who are we to question what God allows or has done.  He is our Creator, and not we ourselves.  Nor do we accuse God of unrighteousness.

Job 33:9  You say, 'I am pure, without transgression; I am clean, and there is no iniquity in me. Job 33:10  Behold, he finds occasions against me, he counts me as his enemy, Job 33:11  he puts my feet in the stocks and watches all my paths.'

Job 33:12  "Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man.  Job 33:13  Why do you contend against him, saying, 'He will answer none of man's words'?

Job 34:5  "For Job has said, 'I am righteous, But God has taken away my justice;  Job 34:6  Should I lie concerning my right? My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.' Job 34:7  What man is like Job, Who drinks scorn like water,  Job 34:8  Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity, And walks with wicked men?  Job 34:9  For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.'

Job 34:10  "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. Job 34:11  For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. Job 34:12  

Job 34:35  'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' Job 34:36  Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! Job 34:37  For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God." Job 35:2  "Do you think this is right? Do you say, 'My righteousness is more than God's'? Job 35:3  For you say, 'What advantage will it be to You? What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?'

Then God answered.   Job 40:1  Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said: Job 40:2  "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

Job 40:3  Then Job answered the LORD and said: Job 40:4  "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Job 40:5  Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."

Job 40:6  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: Job 40:7  "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: Job 40:8  "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? Job 42:1  Then Job answered the LORD and said: Job 42:2  "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 

Job 42:3  You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Job 42:4  Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' Job 42:5  "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Job 42:6  Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

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AND NOW I ASK:  IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE THAT YOU DOING MUCH LIKE WHAT JOB DID?  ARE YOU STANDING IN JUDGEMENT OF YOUR CREATOR?  ARE YOU ACCUSING GOD, YOUR CREATOR OF BEING SELFISH AND CRUEL?   CAN IT BE THAT GOD IS TRYING TO REVEAL TO YOU YOUR OWN HEART?  I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS.

IT IS GOD WHO JUDGES OUR HEARTS AND IT IS NOT FOR US TO JUDGE HIS.  HE TESTS OUR FAITH TO SEE IF IT IS REAL AND WILL WITHSTAND TRIALS.  THAT IS HIS HIS RIGHT AS OUR CREATOR, AS THE ONE WHO GIVES US GRACE AND FAITH, TO SEE WHAT WE WILL DO WITH SUCH UNIMAGINABLE AND WONDERFUL GIFTS.  DO WE JUSTIFY OUR GOD AS BEING RIGHTEOUS AND PURE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL, THE ONE WHO WILL NEVER LEAVE US OR FORSAKE US?  DO WE TRUST THAT HE WILL MAKE ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD, TO THOSE THAT LOVE GOD?.  HE HAS THE RIGHT TO TEST AND QUESTION US.  WE HAVE NO RIGHT WITH OUR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING TO TEST OR QUESTION GOD.  THAT IS THE LESSON OF JOB.

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