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A vesture dipped in blood


Retrobyter

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Thanks Retro

I will read again the whole chapter from the top, and share with you how I understand it.

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Hello Retro

I have read all of Isaiah many times, and just went over again the chapters you mentioned, Isaiah 61, 62 & 63.

I have interpreted every single verse, and saved it to Word, but it's too long to post.  So I will just mention this one for now;

Isaiah 63:1   Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

 

 

Genesis 25:30   And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

 

Edom is Esau – the world that sold their inheritance for a bowl of soup (Material things)  Bozrah is in Edom, so Bozrah is also Esau.  That land.  The land that traded their inheritance for material things– other name is also called Babylon.

 

 

Christ was killed in the land of Edom (Babylon)  His own blood is what stained his garments.  Christ is back from the grave, from that land of Edom where they rejected him, and now re-visits them with a great vengeance.

 

The reason why he treads the winepress alone, is because vengeance is given to only him, not the saints.  Christ is pleading their cause now.  He stands up for them and does not need anyone's help.  He will destroy those armies gathered against him with the command of his mouth, ...his Word.  His Word will bring much blood upon them and their blood will spray his garments because he has judged.

 


 

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7 hours ago, Sister said:

Hello Retro

I have read all of Isaiah many times, and just went over again the chapters you mentioned, Isaiah 61, 62 & 63.

I have interpreted every single verse, and saved it to Word, but it's too long to post.  So I will just mention this one for now;

Isaiah 63:1   Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Genesis 25:30   And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Edom is Esau – the world that sold their inheritance for a bowl of soup (Material things)  Bozrah is in Edom, so Bozrah is also Esau.  That land.  The land that traded their inheritance for material things– other name is also called Babylon.

Shalom, my Sister.

You were okay with all this UNTIL you got to the "Babylon" part. At NO time in the Scriptures is Edowm called "Babylon" (or rather "Bavel"). They are two ENTIRELY different places. Edowm is south of the Dead Sea on the border between Israel and Jordan, and Babylon (or Bavel) is on the east side of the Euphrates River in the Fertile Crescent now called "Iraq." That's a false conclusion, and it got you into trouble here:

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Christ was killed in the land of Edom (Babylon)  His own blood is what stained his garments.  Christ is back from the grave, from that land of Edom where they rejected him, and now re-visits them with a great vengeance.

Actually, you should already understand that the Messiah was NOT killed in the land of Edowm. He was killed just outside Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), in the Land of Y'hudah (Judah) or Judaea (from Iudaea in Latin).

7 hours ago, Sister said:

The reason why he treads the winepress alone, is because vengeance is given to only him, not the saints.  Christ is pleading their cause now.  He stands up for them and does not need anyone's help.  He will destroy those armies gathered against him with the command of his mouth, ...his Word.  His Word will bring much blood upon them and their blood will spray his garments because he has judged.

Sorry, but this is just too much spin on the Scriptures. You (as well as others) need to quit allegorizing ("spiritualizing" falsely so called) Scripture.

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, my Sister.

You were okay with all this UNTIL you got to the "Babylon" part. At NO time in the Scriptures is Edowm called "Babylon" (or rather "Bavel"). They are two ENTIRELY different places. Edowm is south of the Dead Sea on the border between Israel and Jordan, and Babylon (or Bavel) is on the east side of the Euphrates River in the Fertile Crescent now called "Iraq." That's a false conclusion, and it got you into trouble here:

Retro

I have to explain in my own words, so you can know where I am coming from re Christ coming from Edom/Bozra.

 

It comes down to only two lands where the whole world spiritually dwell. 

One, is that land of Zion, where the God fearing dwell, under the law of God and righteousness, an invisible city where there is faith and instruction.

.....and the other is the land of Babylon, the material land where God is forgotten or not acknowledged because of the love for pleasing the flesh.

2 spiritual cities ok.

2 different inheritances.

1. Salvation

or

2. Damnation

 

After Christ, the world has been invited to come out of Babylon spiritually, and to dwell in Zion where there is an inheritance waiting.  The world refuse this inheritance offered to them, and instead choose things that please the flesh. 

and yes, God does not plainly call Edom Babylon, because this is one of the hidden mysteries he wants us to find out.  There was a real place called Edom in the past, where all Esau's children and descendants dwelt, but today they are everywhere spread throughout the earth, not because of their bloodline, but because of the nature of their father Esau who did not care for his inheritance.  The children with "this same spirit", is the children of the world.

We all know Christ died just outside of Jersualem, but the spirit of those who killed him was the same as Esau's spirit, for they did not care for their inheritance.  The spirit of those in the world today, are still killing Christ and rejecting him. These have the spirit of the world.  The spirit of the world is Babylon.  God also calls the world Egypt in many scriptures, he also calls it Assyria (spiritually). 

An example is God also called Jerusalem "Sodom" and "Egypt."

So is Jerusalem really Sodom, or Egypt?

No

He's speaking "spiritually".  Of having the same nature.

It's the same thing with Edom.  Just another name for Babylon (spiritually)  

Jerusalem was serving "Babylon" when Christ was crucified.  And Babylon is also spiritually called Edom.

If we think carnal, we will never understand the Bozrah, Edom thing.  You are looking for a physical place to pin point, and not looking at the world spiritually as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, inchrist said:

You misunderstanding this verse.

The "peoples" here is best understood as "Nations"

All nations are against Israel

Zech 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her

Hence Christ fights alone as there are no Nations that fight alongside Christ.

The Church is not a Nation. So an army of the church can be alongside Christ fighting alone against all Nations.

Shalom, inchrist.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. The church is not a nation so the church can be alongside the Messiah even though He is "fighting alone?" Can't you see how ridiculous that is? Furthermore, not "all nations are against Israel." A proper read of Zechariah 12:1-7 is...

Zechariah 12:1-7
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
KJV

This verse 3 is NOT all-inclusive. What it is saying is that all those who gather against Jerusalem will hurt themselves; literally, they will herniate themselves, trying to lift it! The words "all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces" is the Hebrew phrase "kaal `omceyhaa saarowT yisaareeTuw." "All who-lift-it will-definitely gash-themselves." That describes a person getting a hernia from trying to lift too large a weight.

Furthermore, we have Yeshua`s words in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

Therefore, there will be some nations who are "sheep" nations who partake in God's Kingdom, while there will be some who are "goat" nations who shall NOT partake in God's Kingdom, and Yeshua` says "Goodbye" to them.

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

Isaiah 63:3 must be read with with Isaiah 34

Come near, you nations, and listen;
    pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
    the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The Lord is angry with all nations;
    his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy[a] them,
    he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
    their dead bodies will stink;
    the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
    and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
    like withered leaves from the vine,
    like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
    see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
    the people I have totally destroyed.
6 The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
    it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
    fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
    and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
    the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
    and the dust will be soaked with fat.

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
    a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
    her dust into burning sulfur;
    her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
    no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl[c]will possess it;
    the great owl[d] and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
    the measuring line of chaos
    and the plumb line of desolation.

Here, I basically agree with you, but this doesn't make it all-inclusive, either. I don't know what version of the Bible you are using, but it seems to be a little too broad of a perspective. Here's the World English Bible on verses 2-4, for instance:

Isaiah 34:2-4
2 For Yahweh is enraged against all the nations,
And angry with all their armies.
He has utterly destroyed them.
He has given them over for slaughter.
3 Their slain will also be cast out,
And the stench of their dead bodies will come up;
And the mountains will melt in their blood.
4 All of the army of the sky will be dissolved.
The sky will be rolled up like a scroll,
And all its armies will fade away,
As a leaf fades from off a vine or a fig tree.

WEB

This is more accurate to the text of the Hebrew Bible. Guess what an "army of the sky" would be called today? How about an "air force?"

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1 hour ago, Sister said:

Retro

I have to explain in my own words, so you can know where I am coming from re Christ coming from Edom/Bozra.

 

It comes down to only two lands where the whole world spiritually dwell. 

One, is that land of Zion, where the God fearing dwell, under the law of God and righteousness, an invisible city where there is faith and instruction.

.....and the other is the land of Babylon, the material land where God is forgotten or not acknowledged because of the love for pleasing the flesh.

2 spiritual cities ok.

2 different inheritances.

1. Salvation

or

2. Damnation

 

After Christ, the world has been invited to come out of Babylon spiritually, and to dwell in Zion where there is an inheritance waiting.  The world refuse this inheritance offered to them, and instead choose things that please the flesh. 

and yes, God does not plainly call Edom Babylon, because this is one of the hidden mysteries he wants us to find out.  There was a real place called Edom in the past, where all Esau's children and descendants dwelt, but today they are everywhere spread throughout the earth, not because of their bloodline, but because of the nature of their father Esau who did not care for his inheritance.  The children with "this same spirit", is the children of the world.

We all know Christ died just outside of Jersualem, but the spirit of those who killed him was the same as Esau's spirit, for they did not care for their inheritance.  The spirit of those in the world today, are still killing Christ and rejecting him. These have the spirit of the world.  The spirit of the world is Babylon.  God also calls the world Egypt in many scriptures, he also calls it Assyria (spiritually). 

An example is God also called Jerusalem "Sodom" and "Egypt."

So is Jerusalem really Sodom, or Egypt?

No

He's speaking "spiritually".  Of having the same nature.

It's the same thing with Edom.  Just another name for Babylon (spiritually)  

Jerusalem was serving "Babylon" when Christ was crucified.  And Babylon is also spiritually called Edom.

If we think carnal, we will never understand the Bozrah, Edom thing.  You are looking for a physical place to pin point, and not looking at the world spiritually as a whole.

Shalom, my Sister.

But, it's this dichotomous thinking that is so DEADLY to the understanding of God's Word! It's not better; it's WORSE!

And, for the umpteenth time, I HATE the words "spiritual" and "spiritually!" Nobody EVER uses these words correctly! 

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, my Sister.

But, it's this dichotomous thinking that is so DEADLY to the understanding of God's Word! It's not better; it's WORSE!

And, for the umpteenth time, I HATE the words "spiritual" and "spiritually!" Nobody EVER uses these words correctly! 

Hi Retro

Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

Colossians 1:9   For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

 1 Corinthians 10:4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 1 Corinthians 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

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I have read all the posts on this thread and am astounded at the confusion and denial of most, at the clearly stated prophesies.

The Lord will judge the earth, as He did in the days of Noah, this time with fire. His garment splashed in blood  is metaphorical, but does undeniably confirm for us that the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, is some time before Jesus' Return. when He comes with garments already blood splashed.

Isaiah 63:1 Who is this; coming from Edom, from Bozrah with His garments stained red, moving in His mighty power? It is I; proclaiming victory, I who am strong to save.

Bozrah means ‘sheepfold’, and is used here as a metaphor for those nations where His sheep – every true Christian believer is at present. Matthew 15:24 The Lord, in His mighty power, proclaims victory and saves His people. This is His great Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 34:1-8, Rev 6:12-17

Isaiah 63:2-6 Why are Your clothes splattered with blood? I resolved on a Day of vengeance, I trod the nations in My anger and My clothes were stained. No one came to My assistance, by My own might, I brought victory. I shattered My enemies in My fury, their blood spilled on the ground.   

Luke 20:43 & Acts 2:35 The Lord said to my Lord: sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.  Psalm 110:1

Hebrews 10:12-13 Christ, having offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, took His seat at God’s right hand and now waits until His enemies are made His footstool.

From these verses, it is made quite clear that Jesus does not Return in His glory until His enemies are ‘made His footstool’. That is they are punished and defeated. But it is ‘the Son of man’- that is: Jesus Himself who actually instigates this Day of vengeance.  This accords with; Luke 3:16-17...the chaff He will burn on a unquenchable fire.

Psalm 18:7-15...He makes darkness His covering, hail and glowing coals go before Him.  

But on that Day, He will be revealed to His people, those who believe and trust in His salvation.

Zechariah 9:14-16 The Lord will appear over them, His weapon will flash like lightning – He will save His people.  Ezekiel 20:9-11 & 36

Isaiah 60:1-3 Over you the glory of the Lord has dawned, though darkness covers the earth, on you the Lord shines and over you His Glory will appear.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10....the Day the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire, punishing the godless peoples, He will reveal His glory among all believers.

 Luke 17:29-30 On the day Sodom was destroyed, fire and sulphur rained upon them and killed them all. It will be like that on the Day the Son of Man is revealed.  Isaiah 24:23b

In Luke 4:18-19, At the commencement of His ministry, Jesus quoted only verse 1 and the first half of verse 2 of Isaiah 61:1-2. The second half is unfulfilled prophecy –  ‘A Day of vengeance of our God and to comfort those who mourn’. Many other prophecies confirm that this Day of vengeance and wrath is the next action of the Lord on the earth and as the rest of Isaiah 61:3-11 state, it is also the time He will ‘ comfort those who mourn’. That is: people who grieve for Christ’s death and trust in Him for their salvation.  Note that the Lord has blood stained clothes, then much later at His Return in glory, Revelation 19:13 He is ‘robed in garments dyed in blood’. This proves that the Day of vengeance is before His Return.

 

Isaiah 30:26 The sun will shine with 7 times its normal strength on the Day I save My people.

Habakkuk 3:12-13 Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations. You go forth to save Your people, Your anointed ones. You shatter the house of the godless to its foundations.

Zechariah 10:5-6 Destruction of enemies, then restoration for the true believers of God.

2 Peter 3:12 & 14 Look forward to the coming Day of the Lord and work to hasten it on, for that Day will set the heavens ablaze and melt the elements with fervent heat. In expectation of all this, my friends, do your utmost to be found at peace with Him, unblemished and above reproach.    Ref. REB. some verses abridged.

Verse 13 refers to the New heaven and earth, to come at the end of the Millennium, Revelation 21:1, but before that, more than 40 other prophecies categorically state how His Christian people will gather and settle in the new country of Beulah.   

Edited by Keras
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I see the confusion here as people not realizing there are two Days of the Lord.

One is the terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, as described in Rev 6:12-17 and in over 100 other prophesies.  The second is the great Day of the Lord Almighty: Jesus' Return and Armageddon. Rev 16:14

At the first Day, the Lord is not seen; Psalm 11:4-6, Hab 3:4, Amos 9:5-6, but all the world sees Him at the Return.

The Day of wrath, instigated by Jesus alone, Psalm 110:5-6, is the next prophesied event we can expect, it will change the world and all that is prophesied to happen in the last days will take place and then Jesus will return, accompanied by His angels, and commence His Millennial reign.

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There is only one "Day of the Lord" .... beginning at the tribulation which He will bring [Revelation 12-17]

And this will continue for 2550 days and beyond

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