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A vesture dipped in blood


Retrobyter

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5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

There is only one "Day of the Lord" .... beginning at the tribulation which He will bring [Revelation 12-17]

And this will continue for 2550 days and beyond

That your unsupported opinion is completely wrong, is easily seen by reading Revelation 7, the chapter directly after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, where the angels hold back any further damage to the earth. This will last for several years before the Great Trib happens, to allow for God's holy people to settle into all of the holy Land and for the 144,000 to proclaim the coming Kingdom to all the nations.

As I said; there will be more Days when the Lord will act in His creation, there were Days in the past and there will be more, culminating in the amazing Day that God Himself comes to dwell with mankind. Rev 21:1-4

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There is nothing about holding further damage to the earth in Chapter 7

There are two main areas of focus .... the first being the 144000 mortals of Israel during the coming tribulation, and the second being the immortals of those of both a few of Israel and mostly Gentiles already in heaven [These as are already seen in chapters 4 and 5]

Then the tribulation period will begin in chapter 8 and continue through chapter 19 .... chapter 6:12-17 is the prelude to the coming tribulation

You have a weird idea that is not supported by scripture at all .... Revelation's unfolding is not necessarily linear, but is a series of visions that focus upon specific factors .... all will eventually play out in the ending of the period

Your idea of the immortal Christians of both Jew and Gentile playing a part in the tribulation is absurd .... some will turn to the Lord during the period, but not many

Most who do will be killed for their belief and those that survive will enter and populate the Lords millennial kingdom as mortals

It is the Christians already made immortal, and those resurrected from the tribulation period that will rule during the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth  

 

 

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Sorry, I am unwilling to discuss issues with someone who denies what the Bible actually says. People can read Rev 7:1-3 you know!

 And who twists what I post; nobody becomes immortal until Jesus Returns.

 

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Your exegetical study is biased and untrue for a number of key scriptures related to the coming time of the end of this present age

 

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On 3/21/2017 at 2:51 AM, Sister said:

Hi Retro

Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Colossians 1:9   For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 1 Corinthians 10:4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 1 Corinthians 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Well, OF COURSE, the authors of these books, John and Paul, are going to use the words correctly, but they either wrote in Aramaic or Greek and we, a people who call ourselves "Christians," don't read either one! Not only are the English translations we use lacking in explanation as to what these words meant, but we as English-speaking "Christians" don't bother ourselves to take the time to find out what these words meant! Therefore, we don't necessarily know how to use these words as John or Paul did.

We just use them as we've been taught to use them, usually by people who don't know themselves what they meant! Thus, we end up using words that are MADE UP! They become fictitious words that are used inappropriately and don't mean what we think they mean. It's rather like Moody Radio's made-up word, "Christianly" or Willie Wonka's "Scrumdilliumptious" or Mary Poppins' "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!"

Let me slip within these verses the passage from 1 Corinthians 15:39-54: (Remember: In this transliteration scheme, "e" is an epsilon, "ee" is an eta, "o" is an omicron, and "oo" is an omega. I'll also use an "f" for phi, instead of a "ph.")

1 Corinthians 15:39-54
39 All flesh (Greek: sarx) is not the same flesh (Greek: sarx): but there is one kind of flesh of men (Greek: anthroopoon), another flesh of beasts (Greek: kteenoon), another of fishes (Greek: ichthuoon), and another of birds (Greek: pteenoon).
40 There are also
celestial (Greek: epourania) bodies, and
bodies terrestrial (Greek: epigeia): but
the glory of the celestial (Greek: epouranioon) is one, and
the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: epigeioon) is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun (Greek: heeliou), and
another glory of the moon (Greek: seleenees), and
another glory of the stars (Greek: asteroon):
for one star (Greek: asteer) differeth from another star (Greek: asteros) in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption (Greek: fthoora);
it is raised in incorruption (Greek: aftharsia):
43 It is sown in dishonour (Greek: atima);
it is raised in glory (Greek: doxee):
it is sown in weakness (Greek: astheneia);
it is raised in power (Greek: dunamei):

44 It is sown a natural (Greek: psuchikon) body;
it is raised a spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon) body.
There is a natural (Greek: psuchikon) body, and
there is a spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon) body.
45 And so it is written,
The first man Adam (Greek: ho prootos anthroopos Adam) was made a living (Greek: zoosan) soul (Greek: psucheen);
the last Adam (Greek: ho eschatos Adam) was made a quickening (Greek: zoo-opoioun) spirit (Greek: pneuma).
46 Howbeit that was not first (Greek: prooton) which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon), but
that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon); and afterward
that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon).
47 The first man is of the earth (Greek: ek gees), earthy (Greek: choikos):
the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou).
48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos),
such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi [plural]): and
as is the heavenly (Greek: epouranios),
such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: epouranioi [plural]).
49 And as
we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: choikou),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: epouraniou).

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption (Greek: fthora) inherit incorruption (Greek: aftharsian).
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (Greek: nekroi) shall be raised (Greek: egertheesontai) incorruptible (Greek: afthartoi), and we shall be changed.
53 For
this corruptible (Greek: ftharton) must put on
incorruption (Greek: aftharsian), and
this mortal (Greek: thneeton) must put on
immortality (Greek: athanasian).
54 So when this corruptible (Greek: ftharton)
shall have put on incorruption (Greek: aftharsian), and
this mortal (Greek: thneeton)
shall have put on immortality (Greek: athanasian),
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (Greek: ho thanatos) is swallowed up in victory (Greek: nikos).
KJV

This passage is FULL of contrasts that help to define what is meant by certain words: regarding sarx (flesh; meat), we have the four terms: anthroopoon (of-human-beings), kteenoon (of-animals), ichthuoon (of-fish), and pteenoon (of-birds).

Then, there's all these contrasts:

epourania : epigeia = above/upon the sky : above/upon the ground
(leading to the subcontrast of...
... doxa heeliou : glory of-[the]-sun
... doxa seleenees : glory of-[the]-moon
... doxa asteroon: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee : glory-of-[the]-stars: for a-star differs-from another-star in glory
fthoora : aftharsia = corruption : incorruption
atima : doxee = infamy : glory/fame
astheneia : dunamei = weakness : power
sooma psuchikon : sooma pneumatikon = "natural body : spiritual body" = "an-air-breathing body : a wind-blasting body"
ho prootos anthroopos Adam : ho eschatos Adam = the first man Adam : the last Adam
zoosan : zoo-opoioun = living : life-giving/making ("oo-o" means an omega followed by an omicron)
psucheen : pneuma = "soul : spirit"/an-air-breather : a-strong-wind
ho prootos anthroopos : ho deuteros anthroopos = the first man : the second man
ek gees (choikos) : ex ouranou = out-of [the] ground (soil-like) : out-of [the] sky
choikos : epouranios = soil-like : of/belonging-to above-[the]-sky
choikoi : epouranioi = soil-like (plural) : of/belonging-to above-[the]-sky (plural)
teen eikona tou choikou : teen eikona tou epouraniou = the likeness of-the [one] soil-like : the likeness of-the [One] of/belonging-to above-[the]-sky

Of course, we know and understand that "the last Adam" is Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) ["He-shall-deliver" the Anointed-to-be-King], but some of these contrasts are not "black-and-white" contrasts, as contradictory terms. They are "white-and-whiter" contrasts, as comparative terms. This is how it is for the terms pseucheen and pneuma, and their derivatives, psuchikon and pneumatikon, are best understood in this passage.

He was not comparing the "natural realm" with the "spiritual realm"; he was comparing the air-breathing body, that is just strong enough to stay alive by breathing, with the wind-blasting body, a body that is so strong as to "MAKE life" or "GIVE life," as our Lord's became after His resurrection!

Once one understands this, one is THEN equipped to correctly interpret the Scriptures that use these words!

For instance, let's look at Colossians 1:9:

9 Dia touto kai heemeis, af' hees heemeras eekousamen ou pauometha huper humoon proseuchomenoi kai aitoumenoi hina pleerootheete teen epignoosin tou theleematos autou en pasee sofia kai sunesai pneumatikee.

9 Dia = 9 Through
touto = this-thing
kai = also/and
heemeis, = we,
af' (apo) = since
hees = the
heemeras = day
eekousamen = we-heard-[it]
ou = not
pauometha = do-cease
huper = above/over
humoon = you (plural)
proseuchomenoi = to-wish-toward-[God]
kai = and/also
aitoumenoi = we-desire
hina = so-that
pleerootheete = you-might-be-satisfied
teen = with-the
epignoosin = recognition
tou = of-the
theleematos = will
autou = of-him/his
en = in
pasee = all
sofia = wisdom
kai = and/also
sunesai = mentally-putting-[it]-together
pneumatikee. = to/for-[that]-of-[the]-Wind/Spirit.

Edited by Retrobyter
for the Shabbat
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On 3/21/2017 at 9:41 AM, inchrist said:

Why? In every description in the NT of Christ being visible to the whole earth He always has a company with Him.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,

Matthew 24:30 

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Th 4:16 

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Mark 13:24

“But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Rev 19:11 

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rideris called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on himthat no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him

This should nullify this concept of Christ being alone...There is a stark difference between actually fighting alone and going to the battle alone.

In all instances of Christ appearing to earth either rapture or second coming, Christ is accompanied by either angels or saints.

Shabbat shalom, inchrist.

"In every description" and "in all instances" EXCEPT in this prophecy of Isaiah 63:1-6! Here, He CLEARLY states that He was ALONE! YHWH'S zeal had eaten Him up and He could not delay!

Isaiah 63:1-6
63:1 Who is this, coming from Edom,
from Botzrah with clothing stained crimson,
so magnificently dressed,
so stately in his great strength?

“It is I, who speak victoriously,
I, well able to save (to deliver; to rescue).” 

2 Why is your apparel red,
your clothes like someone treading a winepress? 

3 “I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the peoples, not one was with me.
So I trod them in my anger,
trampled them in my fury;
so their lifeblood spurted out on my clothing,
and I have stained all my garments; 
4 for the day of vengeance that was in my heart
and my year of redemption have come. 
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
and I was appalled that no one upheld me.
Therefore my own arm brought me salvation (deliverance; rescue),
and my own fury upheld me
6 In my anger I trod down the peoples,
made them drunk with my fury,
then poured out their lifeblood on the earth.” 

CJB

All of Israel recognizes that this is a Messianic passage. And, believing that Yeshua` is the Messiah, I have put His words in red.

In a word, He starts without us!

On 3/21/2017 at 9:41 AM, inchrist said:

No, it's says all the people of the earth, in otherwords all the nations. Lets not lose scope of the bowls of wrath.

No, it says "kol gowyeey haa'aarets!" "All peoples of-the-LAND!" The "Land" in this particular case, is talking about the region of the Land of Israel including Israel herself and all the surrounding, neighboring countries that hate Israel, that territory that we now refer to as the Middle East. It's NOT talking about the whole planet! Let's not ADD a universalistic scope that doesn't exist in the text!

On 3/21/2017 at 9:41 AM, inchrist said:

This brings me back to Matthew 25:32:

This will not be a judgment of groups (Germany, Italy, Japan, etc.) but of individuals within these nations, from all ages. 

Further Matthew 25:30 is the rapture and ressurection. Christ is not going to resurrect America or Japan or Fiji, its the individuals within these nations.

Sorry, but you are READING THINGS INTO this passage that aren't there! You're ADDING to the Scriptures your interpretation of prophecy! And, you're not listening to what Yeshua` Himself said!

Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep (the favored) on his right hand (a place of favor), but the goats (the rejected) on the left (a place of .
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

He is talking about PEOPLES, not individuals! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL! There's no "resurrection" mentioned in these verses; there's no "rapture" mentioned here! Indeed, I doubt whether America, Japan, or Fiji will even have a presence at this trial (although America might participate, if they're still around). You will probably more hear the names of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Muslim peoples who are convinced that they need to "drive Israel into the sea!"

Also notice verses 41 through 46:

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

At no time in this passage are the "goats" THROWN into the Lake of Fire. Instead, they are cursed and told to depart. They "go away into everlasting punishment," but we are not told WHEN their punishment might occur! They are RESIGNED to their fate, their punishment, at this tribunal.

On 3/21/2017 at 9:41 AM, inchrist said:

This brings us back to Isaiah 34 which is describing the slaughter of Rev 19

Like Isaiah 34 and Isaiah 63 these two oracles mention specific judgement against the nation of Edom, but well within the context, it then expands the "target audience" to the "peoples" (Isa. 63:3, 6) to all nations, and in the case of (Isa. 34:1) from all peoples to the nation Edom, which clearly takes the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies far beyond the nation of Edom.

Hold on a minute! Which came first, the Old Testament or the New?! Neither Isaiah 34 or Isaiah 63 is "describing the slaughter of Rev. 19!" It's Revelation 19 that is describing a slaughter first prophesied in the OT, specifically, that described by Ezekiel 38 and 39!

On 3/21/2017 at 9:41 AM, inchrist said:

Which would fit the entire slaughter

And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.(Revelation 14:17-20) (1600 furlongs = 160 miles)

No. Only in the English understanding of "furlong" would this distance be "160 miles." The word is the Greek word "stadion" which comes from the Latin word "stadium" or "stade," which was a ROMAN measurement of 1000 paces (pesas) of its army. A stade was 607.14 feet in length. Therefore, 1600 stadia x (607.14 ft / 1 stade) x (1 mi / 5280 ft) = 183.98 miles ~ 184 miles, the length of the Land of Israel.

There's simply a reason why Revelation 14 comes before Revelation 19, and both follow Revelation 11!

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Good information , Retro, maybe a little more that needed!

Also, you confuse the 'wars' to come. They next one is the Lord's Day of wrath, when He alone instigates a terrible Day of fire from the sun.

Five attacks yet to happen:

The Bible prophets describe five attacks by armies against peoples and entities, that await fulfilment in these end times. They are all described differently and all occur at different times, but the common elements are; they all take place in the holy Land and they are all won by the Lord.

In their correct sequence:

 

1/ The Islamic Confederation attack against the State of Israel. Psalms 83:1-18, Micah 4:11-12

2/ The Gog/Magog attack against the new nation of Beulah. Ezekiel 37-38, Joel 2:20

3/ The conquest of Beulah, by the Anti-Christ. Revelation 13:5-7, Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25

4/ The battle of Armageddon by an army from all the nations, at the Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:19, Daniel 8:25

5/ The final rebellion against God at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:7-9, Daniel 2:34-35

 

For what reason do they attack?

1a Because of their ancient enmity against Jacobs descendants.  Ezekiel 25:1-17

2a In order for God to display His power and to make Himself known to His people and the nations. Before Jesus’ visible Return.  Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:7

3a The Anti-Christ will break the 7 year treaty with Beulah. Daniel 9:27, Rev 13:7

4a It is Satan’s attempt to prevent the Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:14

5a Satan’s final deception of mankind. Revelation 20:3 & 7-9

 

What the Lord uses to achieve victory and the results of these attacks:

1b The Middle East is virtually depopulated, by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, caused by a massive explosion of the sun. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 30:25-28, Zephaniah 2:4-15, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18

2b The entire Gog/Magog army is wiped out, by earthquakes and fire. Ezekiel 38:18-22,  Ezekiel 39:3-5, Joel 2:20

3b  Beulah will be conquered and the Lord’s people tested. Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31-35, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 11:2

4b The Anti-Christs army is destroyed by the Sword of the Word and he is chained up. Revelation 20:19-21, Daniel 11:25

5b The armies are burned up and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:9-10

 

What happens to the dead?

1c They are burned to ashes by fire from the sun. Jeremiah 11:16, Malachi 4:1&3, Isaiah 33:12

2c They are buried in Wadi Mujib. Ezekiel 39:11

3c Their souls are kept in heaven awaiting Jesus’ Return. Daniel 11:35, Revelation 20:4

4c Their bodies are food for the birds and animals. Revelation 19:21

5c  They are totally consumed by fire from heaven. Revelation 20:9

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Is typically the rapture and ressurection

will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Plainly this will happen at the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.  And as in 1 Thess 4:15-17, it is those who remain, AFTER the Great Trib, and they meet Jesus in the clouds, then reign with Him on earth. Rev 5:9-10

Retro is correct: there is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone; at any time.  The resurrection is only for the martyred saints, Rev 20:4, all the rest of the dead await the GWT Judgement at the end of the Mill. Rev 20:11-15

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

1 Cor 15:50

flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

We are certainly ressurected or raptured to the Heavenly (kingdom of God) or rather correctly stated: we are ressurected or raptured into the Heavenly, since we will be in the Heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is all about what happens after the Millennium. Proved by the fact that death will still happen during the Mill, Isaiah 65:20

Only after the GWT Judgement, Rev 20:14, is death abolished.  Paul is describing Eternity, when God will dwell on earth, Rev 21:4  Your thinking that what Paul said there will happen soon is quite wrong and contradicts the Words of Jesus, John 3:13. We humans never go to heaven, but eventually heaven comes down to us.

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is false teaching and leaves those who have been fooled by it unprepared for what God actually does plan for His people.

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

I dont see an exemption clause that states ONLY the martyred are considered to be the dead in christ.

I quoted Rev 20:4. Read it - only those who have been killed for their faith will be resurrected at Jesus' Return. The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgement. If their names are in the Book of Life; Eternity with God, if not; Lake of Fire!

All this is plainly Written. Why believe anything different?

Edited by Keras
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Because these are the pre-tribulation saints who have already been immortalized

 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

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