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A vesture dipped in blood


Retrobyter

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On 3/26/2017 at 8:16 AM, inchrist said:

One does not build a doctrine on one verse. Hence why we have shiploads of nonsense of an antichrist making a covenant with many.

Shalom, inchrist.

Hmmm... Nor should one be ATTEMPTING to build a DOCTRINE from a single verse ... or attempting to COUNTER a doctrine with a single verse. You need to understand that there is MORE to this than what can be packed neatly into some mere "doctrine!"

While I agree with you about "the shiploads of nonsense about an antichrist," there are many things that can be found in the prophecies than what can be gleaned by throwing all the prophecies together and attempting to arbitrarily blend passages together because they share one or two English words in common!

Sometimes, prophecies SUPPLEMENT each other. If they all said the same thing, one or more would be superfluous and not necessary. However, prophecies, like the Gospels, give different perspectives on the events of the future, whether or not they are describing the same event. Y'know, there will be MANY things that happen that aren't even IN the prophecies! 

When prophecies are talking about "a man of sin" or "the beast" or "the lawless one" or "the man doomed to destruction" or "the man of lawlessness" or "the foolish shepherd" or "the worthless shepherd" or "a contemptible person" or "a little horn" or even "the antichrist," how do we even know they are talking about the same person?! They come from various sources, from various authors, from various prophecies, and it is ASSUMED that they all refer to the same person!

The same thing is applicable to the prophecies about Yeshua`s Coming! Those who believe in a premillennial, pretribulational rapture, for instance, rightly believe (IMO) that 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 Thess. 4:13-17 are talking about the same event - the "rapture," the coming FOR His saints. However, they further see this as a separate event from the 2nd Coming proper, when our Lord returns WITH His saints. I know this, because I used to believe this way. I, however, now believe that 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 Thess. 4:13-17 are both talking about the Second Coming itself. He comes for His own, resurrecting those who are already dead, and transforming all into their glorified bodies. Then, He comes WITH His saints to rescue His family, the children of Israel. The problem is THERE'S A LEARNING CURVE for those who have just been transformed! No one is promised "instant knowledge." Instead, people will have to be caught up, brought up to speed, even to the point of teaching most HOW TO RIDE A HORSE, particularly a WAR HORSE, with confidence! In the mean time, Yeshua` doesn't have the time to wait for them! He doesn't have time to waste!

Isaiah 59:12-62:5
12 For our crimes multiply before you,
our sins testify against us;
for our crimes are present with us;
and our sins, we know them well:
13 rebelling and denying Adonai,
turning away from following our God,
talking about oppression and revolt,
uttering lies which our hearts have conceived. 

14 Thus justice is repelled,
righteousness stands apart, at a distance;
for truth stumbles in the public court,
and uprightness cannot enter.
15 Honesty is lacking,
he who leaves evil becomes a target.

Adonai saw it, and it displeased him
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
was amazed that no one interceded.

Therefore his own arm (His Messiah) brought him salvation (deliverance; rescue),
and his own righteousness (in His Messiah) sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
salvation (deliverance; rescue) as a helmet on his head;
he clothed himself with garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in a mantle of zeal.
18 He repays according to their deeds —
fury to his foes, reprisal to his enemies;
to the coastlands he will repay their due;
19 in the west they will fear the name of Adonai,
and likewise, in the east, his glory.

For he will come like a pent-up stream,
impelled by the Spirit of Adonai.
20 “Then a Redeemer (His Messiah) will come to Tziyon,
to those in Ya‘akov who turn from rebellion.”
So says Adonai.
21 “And as for me,” says Adonai,
“this is my covenant with them:
my Spirit, who rests on you,
and my words which I put in your mouth
will not depart from your mouth
or from the mouth of your children,
or from the mouth of your children’s children,
now or ever,” says Adonai

60:1 “Arise, shine [Yerushalayim],
for your light has come,
the glory of Adonai has risen over you.
2 For although darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness the peoples;
on you Adonai will rise;
over you will be seen his glory.
3 Nations will go toward your light
and kings toward your shining splendor.
4 Raise your eyes and look around:
they are all assembling and coming to you;
your sons are coming from far off,
your daughters being carried on their nurses’ hips.
5 Then you will see and be radiant,
your heart will throb and swell with delight;
for the riches of the seas will be brought to you,
the wealth of nations will come to you.
6 Caravans of camels will cover your land,
young camels from Midyan and ‘Eifah,
all of them coming from Sh’va,
bringing gold and frankincense,
and proclaiming the praises of Adonai.
7 All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered for you,
the rams of N’vayot will be at your service;
they will come up and be received on my altar,
as I glorify my glorious house. 

8 “Who are these, flying along like clouds,
like doves to their dovecotes?
9 The coastlands are putting their hope in me,
with the ‘Tarshish’ ships in the lead,
to bring your children from far away,
and with them their silver and gold,
for the sake of Adonai your God,
the Holy One of Isra’el, who glorifies you.
10 Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
their kings will be at your service;
for in my anger I struck you,
but in my mercy I pity you.
11 Your gates will always be open,
they will not be shut by day or by night,
so that people can bring you the wealth of nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that won’t serve you will perish;
yes, those nations will be utterly destroyed. 

13 “The glory of the L’vanon will come to you,
cypresses together with elm trees and larches,
to beautify the site of my sanctuary —
I will glorify the place where I stand.
14 The children of your oppressors will come
and bow low before you,
all who despised you will fall at your feet,
calling you the city of Adonai,
Tziyon of the Holy One of Isra’el. 

15 “In the past you were abandoned and hated,
so that no one would even pass through you;
but now I will make you the pride of the ages,
a joy for many generations.
16 You will drink the milk of nations,
you will nurse at royal breasts
and know that I, Adonai, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Ya‘akov. 

17 “For bronze I will bring you gold,
for iron I will bring you silver,
bronze in place of wood,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make shalom your governor
and righteousness your taskmaster.
18 Violence will no longer be heard in your land,
desolation or destruction within your borders;
instead, you will call your walls Salvation (Deliverance; Rescue)
and your gates Praise. 

19 “No more will the sun be your light by day,
nor will moonlight shine on you;
instead Adonai will be your light forever
and your God your glory.
20 No longer will your sun go down;
your moon will no longer wane;
for Adonai will be your light forever;
your days of mourning will end.
21 All your people will be tzaddikim (righteous ones);
they will inherit the land forever;
they will be the branch I planted,
my handiwork, in which I take pride.
22 The smallest will grow to a thousand,
the weakest will become a mighty nation.
I, Adonai, when the right time comes,
will quickly bring it about.” 

61:1 The Spirit of Adonai Elohim is upon me,
because Adonai has anointed me
to announce good news to the poor.
He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted;
to proclaim freedom to the captives,
to let out into light those bound in the dark;
2 to proclaim the year of the favor of Adonai
and the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn,
3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn,
giving them garlands instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit,
so that they will be called oaks of righteousness
planted by Adonai, in which he takes pride.
4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins,
restore sites long destroyed;
they will renew the ruined cities,
destroyed many generations ago.
5 Strangers will stand and feed your flocks,
foreigners plow your land and tend your vines;
6 but you will be called cohanim (priests) of Adonai,
spoken of as ministers to our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and revel in their riches.
7 Because of your shame, which was doubled,
and because they cried, “They deserve disgrace,”
therefore in their land what they own will be doubled,
and joy forever will be theirs.
8 “For I, Adonai, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offerings.
So I will be faithful to reward them
and make an eternal covenant with them.”
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations,
their offspring among the peoples;
all who see them will acknowledge
that they are the seed Adonai has blessed. 

10 I am so joyful in Adonai!
My soul rejoices in my God,
for he has clothed me in salvation,
dressed me with a robe of triumph,
like a bridegroom wearing a festive turban,
like a bride adorned with her jewels.
11 For just as the earth brings forth its plants,
or a garden makes its plants spring up,
so Adonai, God, will cause victory and glory
to spring up before all nations. 

62:1 For Tziyon’s sake I will not be silent,
for Yerushalayim’s sake I will not rest,
until her vindication shines out brightly
and her salvation like a blazing torch.
2 The nations will see your vindication
and all kings your glory.
Then you will be called by a new name
which Adonai himself will pronounce.
3 You will be a glorious crown in the hand of Adonai,
a royal diadem held by your God.
4 You will no longer be spoken of as ‘Azuvah [Abandoned]
or your land be spoken of as ‘Sh’mamah [Desolate];
rather, you will be called Heftzi-Vah [My-Delight-Is-In-Her]
and your land Be‘ulah [Married].
For Adonai delights in you,
and your land will be married —  
5 as a young man marries a young woman,
your sons will marry you;
as a bridegroom rejoices over the bride,
your God will rejoice over you. 
CJB

And, of course, we know Yeshua` quoted 61:1-2a in Luke 4:18-19. It just wasn't time, yet, for Him to include the rest of the passage! He hadn't been accepted as Israel's King!

 

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Yes His judgement/ slaughter was ALONE, however you are failing to prove that Christ made Himself visible to the earth ALONE in order to execute this slaughter which He did Alone

Oh, please. Let's look at the word translated "alone":

OT:905 bad (bad); from OT:909; properly, separation; by implication, a part of the body, branch of a tree, bar for carrying; figuratively, chief of a city; especially (with prepositional prefix) as an adverb, apart, only, besides:
KJV - alone, apart, bar, besides, branch, byself, of each alike, except, only, part, staff, strength.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Genesis 2:18
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
KJV

Genesis 32:24
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
KJV

Exodus 24:2
2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.
KJV

1 Samuel 7:4
4 Then the children of Israel did put away Baalim and Ashtaroth, and served the Lord only.
KJV

2 Samuel 18:24-26
24 And David sat between the two gates: and the watchman went up to the roof over the gate unto the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone.
25 And the watchman cried, and told the king. And the king said, If he be alone, there is tidings in his mouth. And he came apace, and drew near.
26 And the watchman saw another man running: and the watchman called unto the porter, and said, Behold another man running alone. And the king said, He also bringeth tidings.
KJV

2 Kings 19:15
15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
KJV

2 Chronicles 6:30
30 Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)
KJV

Nehemiah 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
KJV

etc. for 200 instances of this word!

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Go back to Isaiah [63:5]

5 I looked, but there was no one to help, and I was appalled that no one upheld me.

Shamem = meaning to be devastated, ravaged, deflowered, and appalled.

These are not words of Christ describing his reaction or feelings of condemnation that would include the Church being his bride for leaving Christ Alone . Since when does the actions or non actions of the Church particularly in endtimes make Christ feel deflowered, devastated, ravaged or in anyway make Christ feel appalled towards the Church to be included that no one helped?  

Humph. No one said they were! These are the Messiah's reaction to the fact that there was no one from other nations that would help Him to drive the foreigners out of His Land! His followers, newly resurrected, were simply incapacitated for the time being as they learned (and re-learned) the things they needed to know to be of some help. 

From Revelation 19, we learn that His followers would be wearing white. Who wears white on a battlefield? Aren't they the MEDICS and RESCUERS?! His followers (we) won't be fighting; we'll be doing His bidding in rescuing those who are His who have been harmed and/or taken captive by the enemy in the places He frees! We're the RED CROSS (or the RED SHIELD OF DAVID) on the battlefield! Rather appropriate, don't you think? That'll be our jobs!

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 ...

Scriptually impossible, given the very fact at Christ appearance the Church would immediately FLOCK to Christ. What you are proposing is the complete opposite, the Church instead to forsake Christ, be amongst the nations who will make Christ appalled and devastated by forsaking its King and duty of being the bulwark of Truth.

All because you have a superficial understanding of Isaiah

Nonsense. It's YOU who hasn't fully understood the prophecy of Yesha`yahu. Read it in a text you can understand that is true to the text in Hebrew. You've simply misunderstood what I was saying, and are now purporting that I've said something I've NEVER said!

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Really?

Lets see... Rev 11:18 & 15

  Here is your "sheep"  = The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name,both great and small—

Here is your "Goats"  = and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Here is "inherit the kingdom"  = “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah

Nope. You're manufacturing a connection between the two. The sheep/goats reference in Matthew 25 is about Yeshua`, now as King, deciding the fates of those nations who participated in the war. Some nations, like Egypt, will probably fight FOR Israel. Others, like Jordan, will probably fight AGAINST Israel. If they provided shelter and provision to His own people, they will be granted a part of His Kingdom as a vassal state. If they were hostile to His own people, they were sent home to their fate, to participate eventually in the Great White Throne Judgment and the Sentencing (Perdition) to follow.

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Really because the last time I checked...

 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

...Is typically the rapture and ressurection

will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

This is important: When you see the word "glory" do you think a PLACE or a CONDITION? It's NOT a place, as though there was a "place" called "Glory," a nickname for "Heaven."

"Glory" is the CONDITION of our Lord SHINING IN HIS BRIGHTNESS! When He "sits upon the throne of His glory," that is His throne of FAME! "Glory" simply means anything that makes something or someone stand out from something or someone else. As the stars in the sky are said to have "glory," it's because they are physically bright white (yellow, red, or blue, etc.) against a black background! As kings of the earth are said to have "glory," it's because they are famous and usually arrayed in splendor that rivals the garments of others, making them stand out in contrast to all around them.

When our Lord comes "on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory," that's Him coming in BRIGHT LIGHT rivaling and outdoing the sun at noontime! He isn't just a bright white light against a black background; He LIGHTS UP THE SKY bright blue, as the sun does! He may actually be shining while sitting upon His throne, as well!

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No that is called an unsubstantiated opinion.

Isaiah 63:6 I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”

Isaiah 34 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! The Lord is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.

The battle is not just at Edom it extends far out to Armageddon.

Look, if you want to look at all the battles and skirmishes separately, then we're looking at Isaiah 63 and 34 as being separate from Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 38 and 39. If you want to look at the WHOLE WAR, then, yes, they are all the same. Har-Megiddown (Armageddon) IS a place today known as "Tel Megiddo" located southeast of Haifa in Israel. It was a "watchtower" on the mountain range separating the plains before the Mediterranean Sea and the Valley of Yizr`e'l (Jezreel).

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What does that matter? The slaughter extends the entire length of Israel including both Edom and Armageddon. 

Technicalities may not SEEM to matter...until you are actually THERE!

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"Are you saying Rev 20:4 is pre-trib?  If so you are hopelessly deceived and incapable of understanding simple concepts"

 

Of course I am .... those made immortal [those on thrones] are pre-tribulation

.... those after are tribulation believers killed and resurrected

Both will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom

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I will leave you people to your fanciful dreams.

My wife and I are going to the Philippines for 2 months, to look after an organization for a couple who are home on furlough. I may be able to post here, may not.

What I know for sure is that sometime, probably quite soon, the Lord will instigate a dramatic Day of fire, earthquakes and storms, that will change the world as we know it. It will be the Day He [metaphorically] gets His garments splashed with blood. No one will be raptured or transformed, we must stand firm in our faith and trust Him for protection, for that 24 hour period.

May God bless you all.

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3 hours ago, Keras said:

My wife and I are going to the Philippines for 2 months

off topic note:  Congratulations!   Hope you get to enjoy "dreams"(so to speak), YHWH WILLING,  (not fanciful) in the Philippines.....    veterans who visited there for a few weeks came back to the usa and packed up and moved to the Philippines for the better health there (they experienced this unexpected or expected,  in just a couple weeks to 2 months there) .   (from better readily available food as God created it,  less processed, less poisoned)

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4 hours ago, inchrist said:

It took Peter instantly to learn to walk on water. 

The problem is you are applying our physical limitations in the supernatural. In the supernatural, our wills are perfectly united to God's will - which is a property of the divine intellect. 

We will essentially be plugged into His intellect being His will. If God wants us to instantly ride war horses, we will instantly ride war horses as it's His will, free of all limitation to what we can know or do. 

Therefore I completely reject your concept of our abilities in the spiritual, particularly the need to go to riding school.

Shalom, inchrist.

I will take particular pleasure in watching you ride! or in watching you learn to ride!

Peter (Kefa) already knew how to walk; he didn't have to learn how to walk. All he had to do was keep his eyes on Yeshua` and ignore on what he was walking.

That's different than you riding on a horse that has more confidence in his abilities than you have in your own. Don't think for one moment that a horse doesn't know when his rider is green. 

NO ONE is "plugged into God's intellect!" It's the same thing as people thinking that going to heaven means that they will have instant knowledge! There's absolutely NO place in Scripture that guarantees such a thing! That's a myth! A fable!

Randy Alcorn in his book Heaven wrote (Chapter 32 - What Will We Know and Learn?),

Quote

God alone is omniscient. When we die, we'll see things far more clearly, and we'll know much more than we do now, but we'll never know everything.

He also writes,

Quote

 

It was God--not Satan--who made us learners. God doesn't want us to stop learning. What he wants to stop is what prevents us from learning.

Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards, who intensely studied Heaven, believed, "the saints will be progressive in knowledge to all eternity." He added, "The number of ideas of the saints shall increase to eternity."

 

And, he writes,

Quote

 

Will our knowledge and skills vary? Will some people in Heaven have greater knowledge and specialized abilities than others? Why not? Scripture never teaches sameness in Heaven. We will be individuals, each with our own memories and God-given gifts. Some of our knowledge will overlap, but not all. I'm not a mechanic or gardener, as you may be. I may or may not learn those skills on the New Earth.

But even if I do, that doesn't mean I'll ever be as skilled a gardener or mechanic as you will be. After all, you had a head start on learning. Remember the doctrine of continuity: What we learn here carries over after death.

 

I have a corollary to this "doctrine of continuity": What we DON'T learn here WILL have to be learned after death!

Mr. Alcorn writes:

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When we enter Heaven, we'll presumably begin with the knowledge we had at the time of our death. God may enhance our knowledge and will correct countless wrong perceptions. I imagine he'll reveal many new things to us, then set us on a course of continual learning, paralleling Adam and Eve's. Once we're in resurrection bodies with resurrected brains, our capacity to learn may increase. Perhaps angel guardians or loved ones already in Heaven will be assigned to tutor and orient us.

While I believe in his concept of the New Earth and reject his notion of the "current Heaven," I agree with him here. There is MUCH for us to re-learn and learn for the first time for which we will need tutors. There's no promise of "instant knowledge." I also don't believe that we will learn that much faster. Processing still takes time and commitment to memory takes time, especially if we haven't had much practice at committing things to memory!

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people 

If those are not Christ's people being His sheep then, by God, who are they? 

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

If those are not the goats, then, by God, who are they?

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah

If that is not the Kingdom, then, by God, what are we inheriting?

Why do you keep going back to Revelation 11? Here's what you are reading:

Revelation 11:15-19
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

"The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever." 

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry;
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great —
and for destroying those who destroy the earth." 

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. 
NIV

I'm talking about Matthew 25!

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in [heavenly] glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'  
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." 
NIV

Let's talk about the order of the establishment of Yeshua`s Kingdom:

First, He must be accepted by His own tribe, Y'hudah (Judah). He was born to be "the King of the Jews," and that was the epitaph nailed to His cross when He was crucified.

Second, He must be accepted by His countrymen, who must be returned to the Land. He must become "the King of Israel," or as Gavri'el put it, "He shall reign over the house of Ya`aqov (Jacob = Israel) forever," and "inherit the throne of His father (ancestor) David."

Third, as He subdues other thrones and kingdoms, they will become part of His Kingdom as vassal states. Some will bow to Him without a fight. Others will resist until He must conquer them. This will also take time to complete, and by comparing 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 with Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-6, we learn that it will take a THOUSAND years to complete! It's not until the END of the thousand years (the Millennium) that the Great White Throne Judgment takes place. It is THIS judgment when Yeshua`, on behalf of His Father YHWH, will "judge the dead" and "destroy those who destroy the earth."

Thus, we can discover that although Revelation 11 refers to the BEGINNING of the Millennium; that is, we learn that Yeshua` has just "begun to reign," the prophecy of the 24 elders projects to the CLOSE of the Millennium, as well.

We learn from Yeshua` (in Matthew 25) that this separation between the sheep and the goat nations will happen at the BEGINNING of His reign, for He said, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in [heavenly] gloryAll the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

Timing is EVERYTHING! Therefore, this separation comes at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, but the Judgment (the GWTJ) comes at the END of the Millennium. They are NOT the same event!

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

I see one battle, from one end to the other.

No, it's not one battle. A "battle" is defined thusly:

Quote

 

battle is a combat in warfare between two or more armed forces, or combatants. A war sometimes consists of many battles. Battles generally are well defined in duration, area, and force commitment.

Wars and military campaigns are guided by strategy, whereas battles take place on a level of planning and execution known as operational mobility. German strategist Carl von Clausewitz stated that "the employment of battles ... to achieve the object of war" was the essence of strategy.

 

Frankly, the Messiah to be King is fighting a WAR, consisting of SEVERAL battles, one of which is called "Armageddon" or the battle at Har Megiddow (Tel Megiddo). Even a small nation such as Israel will take time to for one man, even the Son of God, to wage a war against NATIONS plural!

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15 hours ago, Keras said:

My wife and I are going to the Philippines for 2 months....
to look after an organization for a couple who are home on furlough.....

:emot-heartbeat:

Praying~!

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17 hours ago, Keras said:

I will leave you people to your fanciful dreams.

My wife and I are going to the Philippines for 2 months, to look after an organization for a couple who are home on furlough. I may be able to post here, may not.

What I know for sure is that sometime, probably quite soon, the Lord will instigate a dramatic Day of fire, earthquakes and storms, that will change the world as we know it. It will be the Day He [metaphorically] gets His garments splashed with blood. No one will be raptured or transformed, we must stand firm in our faith and trust Him for protection, for that 24 hour period.

May God bless you all.

 
 

God Bless you Keras  as you look after the organization of the people who are on furlough, is this the first time you go to the Philippines?

Maybe you can share some experiences t with us? 

Praying you may share the Gospel , "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will send you out to fish for people." Matthew 4:19

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On 3/30/2017 at 10:24 AM, inchrist said:

But dont the armies riding war horses of Rev 19 have their eye on Jesus?

Shalom, inchrist.

Nice try. You KNOW there's a difference. We're talking about LEARNING.

Regarding my comment, "That's different than you riding on a horse that has more confidence in his abilities than you have in your own. Don't think for one moment that a horse doesn't know when his rider is green," you said,

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This is thinking from a natural world perspective.....do you not think the super natural perspective is completely different?

Nope! I don't! The "supernatural" is NOT about us, nor is it FOR us! I believe that there will be little difference between our future New Earth and the First Earth that Adam and Chavah ("Eve") knew before the curse (and before the Flood)! God looked at His original Creation and said, "It was very good." (Gen. 1:31.) What do you think it means when the one and only PERFECT GOD says that something was "very good?" Can it be improved upon? And yet, their Earth was a completely NATURAL Earth, following all the laws of chemistry, physics, geology, and hydrology!

Furthermore, when Yeshua` returns and becomes King (1) of Y'hudah (the Jews), (2) of Yisra'el (Israel), and (3) of other kings, i.e., the World Emperor, He will be reigning upon a physical Earth, beginning with the first 1000 years of His Kingdom (the Millennium).

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You're taking what I'm saying completely out of its context.

We will essentially be plugged into His intellect being -- His will.

If it is God's will for us to instantly ride war horses, we will instantly ride war horses. God commands it, and it happens.

I'm not talking about "we will know everything." I'm talking about being connected into God's will.

While I agree with God's creative prerogative, that's NOT "His will" for us:

This is something I began learning back in the late 1970s. The key verse is verse 3 in this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-7
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
KJV

The commandments that Paul and Silas gave them by the Master Yeshua` (the Lord Jesus) were:

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

KJV

There is a difference between what God wants and what He knows will happen. What God wants - God's WILL - is our sanctification; that is, He wants us to do right, particularly by others.

God doesn't just want us to KNOW His Will; He wants us to DO His Will! If you look up all the verses in the Bible that speak about God's will, notice how many of them involve the word "do!" "Thy will be DONE."

Ephesians 6:5-8
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
KJV

1 Peter 2:15-16
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
KJV

Matthew 12:49-50
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,
Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

KJV

Mark 3:34-35
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said,
Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

KJV

John 4:34
34 Jesus saith unto them,
My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
KJV

John 5:30
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

John 6:38-40
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 7:17
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
KJV

Hebrews 10:5-7
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
KJV

Hebrews 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV

On the other hand, God has NEVER said that we need to know His PLAN for the universe! In fact, He has purposely HIDDEN His plan for the universe from us!

Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
KJV

We are not to worry about who we are to marry or what we are supposed to do for an occupation or where we are to go in this world to serve Him; that is NOT what God's Will is all about. God's Will is that, in whatever WE choose to do, wherever WE choose to go, whomever WE choose to marry, we do it RIGHTEOUSLY! We think of others first, stemming from our love for God. God gives us our personalities and our preferences, our tastes and our talents. Therefore, He allows us to choose that to which we naturally gravitate.

For instance, remember the song with the lyrics, "Yes, it's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes along"? There is no such thing as a "Mr. Right" or a "Miss Right." One CANNOT "miss the right one." To think that way is a death sentence for one's marriage. WHOMEVER one marries BECOMES "the right one," and one must WORK at marriage to keep it strong! The minute that you have married your spouse, your spouse IS your "right one!" God NEVER condones divorce supposedly "to obey God's Will" and "marry someone else we were supposed to marry in the first place!" That's just wrong-headed thinking!

In the same way, God's Will is NEVER for us to ride a particular kind of horse, whether we are so instructed or not. God's Will is our SANCTIFICATION, our HOLINESS!

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Even your quotes from Randy Alcorn confirms we will see things far more clearly. If we see things far more clearly in our faith, then riding war horses is easy.

Seeing clearly does NOT make riding war horses easy! It might make us understand how unqualified we are to ride such horses, but it does NOTHING about our intelligence or experience!

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Firstly God is infinite, so yes we certainly never stop learning about God and his wisdom.

Good...

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Secondly you are again stuck with this natural world incapability mentality. 

OF COURSE, I am! We are NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven"; we are instructed to anticipate the RESURRECTION of our bodies, of the RESURRECTION of ourselves, since we ARE our bodies, just as Adam was! (Gen. 2:7; 1 Cor. 15:42-49.)

After the Resurrection, we participate in the Kingdom as some of its subjects (and possibly, some of its rulers) here on this earth in that time period known as the "Millennium." (Rev. 20:1-7; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.)

After the Millennium and after the Fire, the New Earth is re-created and Yeshua` turns over the Empire He has built to His Father and continues to reign as Israel's King from His throne in the New Jerusalem, right here on this renovated planet. (Rev. 20:8-15; 21:1-4; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.)

There is NO time in the future when we will be alive anywhere but on the earth! (After all the prophecies have been fulfilled, we MAY go to other star systems and other planets, as some envision, but that's not in prophecy.)

The two words on which most people get "hung up" are "heaven" and "spiritual." When one understands that "heaven" is simply the "sky," in particular, the "atmosphere" of this planet (as can be ascertained in the Greek words translated "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly," "heavenly" translating two different Greek words) and that "spiritual" is talking about a more powerful, physical body in 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 and is often used as a synonym to "attitude" in other places, as a "SPOKEN (breathed) attitude," then it will all make sense in a much more concrete manner than to which most are accustomed.

Rather than gazing off into the heavens airily (air-headedly), imagining what Heaven will be like,...

we can imagine what a huge city landing upon our own physical earth, having undergone a resurrection of its own, will look like! We can imagine what it will be like to have bodies that will glow! We can imagine what it will be like to travel on the many levels of the city that is 1,379 miles 4,560 feet tall as well as that distance long and wide! Just on the foundational levels itself this city will have more than 8,594,551 SQUARE MILES of building area! And, that's not to mention all of the square footage of all the various levels of all the various buildings within this HUGE city, the whole city being made of pure gold! And everywhere you go, the river is flowing down the middle of the streets with the park of trees ("paradise" or "paradeisos" or "pardeec") on either side of the river, like the biggest "Central Park" EVER! "Living water" is MOVING water. It will never pool or grow stagnant.

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Because Rev 11:15-19 is Matthew 25:31-46 beginning of Christ's reign.

Matt. 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in [heavenly] glory. 

Rev. 11:12 "Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

1 Cor. 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Rev. 11:15b The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.  

Matt. 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 

Rev. 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

First, let's get this out of the way: It's NOT "he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory," as the NIV puts it. That's a BAD translation of the verse! The Greek of this verse is...

Kata Maththaion 25:31
31 Hotan = When
de = but
elthee = he-shall-come
ho = the
Huios = Son
tou = of-the
anthroopou = man
en = in
tee = the
doxee = glory
autou = of-him; his
kai = and
pantes = all
hoi = the
aggeloi = messengers
met’ (meta) = with
autou, = him,
tote = then
kathisei = he-shall-sit
epi = upon; above; over
thronou = a-throne 
doxees = glory
autou = of-his

Thus, the wording should be…

“But when the Son of the man shall come in his glory and all the messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory.”

There's no "heavenly" in the verse, neither the Greek word "ouranios" nor the word "epouranios!" That's why I put the word "heavenly" in square brackets! It was an ADDED word! This is NOT talking about Yeshua` going back to some "Heaven" to reign! This is talking about a throne on which He will GLOW and BE FAMOUS! However, we also know that He will sit upon his father David's throne:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

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You have this backwards, the Jews have completely rejected the Messiah - prophetic template of Rachel, she (Christ's Jewish Bride) will be the last to accept the Messiah. She needs to be provoked to jealousy first. This can only be accomplished by witnessing Christ's other bride entering into the kingdom first.

Well, THAT'S a bad read of Romans 11! What "provokes her to jealousy?"

Romans 11:11-32
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid (Greek: mee genoito = "may it never be!"): but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation (copying) them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world (exchange with the world), what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (the Resurrection)?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (oleander tree), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleander tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (a true olive tree): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel (the good news), they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (the chosen seed of Israel), they are beloved (loved ones) for the fathers' (the ancestors', the patriarchs') sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't take back His promises!)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

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Leah is Christ's Christian bride who would be the House of Ephraim.

This is just nonsense. First of all, why would the Messiah have TWO brides?, as if one wouldn't be trouble enough! Wasn't it Yeshua` HIMSELF who said, "

Matthew 19:4b-6
4 ... Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain (two) shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain (two), but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
KJV

Second, how is the Messiah's "Christian bride" (consisting mostly of Gentiles) "the House of Efrayim?!"

No, this is more of that "Two House" nonsense. Some people will resort to ANYTHING to see themselves in prophecy!

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She has accepted Christ along with her companions the Gentiles. Christ marries her first. This occurs in Rev 11:15 on Ro'sh Hashannah, Christ will only marry His second bride the House of Judah on Yowm Kippur 10 days later Rev 19.

This is MORE bogus nonsense! Boy! If the "Two House" mentality wasn't clear before, it sure is now!

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Isaiah 54:5-8
For your Maker is your husband - the Lord Almighty is his name - the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit - a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God. “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger (Ten Days of Awe) I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord your Redeemer.

Isaiah 54:1-17
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
KJV

These first verses were quoted by Paul to the Galatians:

Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

This is talking about ONE woman who was barren, Sarai who became Sarah, the wife of Avraham, the mother of Yitschaq (Isaac), the Father of Ya`aqov (Jacob) who became Yisra'el (Israel), the father of the twelve sons who later included the two sons of Yosef (Joseph), Efrayim and Manasheh.

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‘Isaiah 63:1-6
I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come....my own wrath sustained me. I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.’"

That is the order of things.  So if you wish to persist in the church needing to learn to ride war horses....10 days would be enough to learn.  This nullifies your attempt to explain Christ needing to start Rev 19 first without the christian bride.

Nonsense. Ten days is TOO LONG a time to waste! The Messiah Yeshua` will be in too big of a hurry to wait even one day, let alone 10 days!
Just look at the facts! He comes with His saints (His holy ones) in Revelation 19 with His clothes ALREADY soaked in blood! He's been busy between Revelation 11 and Revelation 19!

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 The battle of Gettysburg stretched from one end to the other.

That's not a definition; that's a STATEMENT! Furthermore, it is incomplete! From one end of ... what ... to the other ... what? Go back and investigate for yourself the difference between a "war" and a "battle."

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The messiah doesnt need to fight a prelonged war....He needs one battle where all nations are drawn in order to do the following.

Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

That COULD be true if it weren't for all the other prophecies that say other things will go on, as well! For instance,...

Joel 3:1-17
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (not them making a "decision for Christ," as some have suggested, but the Messiah making decisions about their fates): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

There's more going on than one solitary plague!

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We are now on Mindoro island in the Philippines. I will start a thread on the General Discussion about our work here.

I read the discussion here, peoples opinions about what God plans for us in the end times. There is very little, if any consensus about what is prophesied. Why is that? The information IS given to us; for example: When is the Resurrection of the righteous? Revelation 20:4 is plain, there will be a first resurrection of the martyred saints at the Return, but the general resurrection doesn't happen until after the Great White Throne judgement.  Thinking that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will occur before that time, there will be no more death...is simply false teaching.

And why is there controversy about when Jesus gets His garments splashed in blood?  Rev 19:13 clearly states that He COMES with blood already on His clothes. Where did He get it?       At his terrible Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations; at least 7 years BEFORE His Return! As Isaiah 63:1-6 and Psalms 11:4-6 plus over 100 other prophesies tell us, in great detail about that Day of disaster, that will come upon the whole world. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8

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It is rather difficult to have a discussion with you; inchrist, as you obviously don't study your Bible before replying and you use words that don't exist. Involation is not a word, involution  means: contraction of the uterus. Is that what you meant? (:

Plainly, obviously and undoubtedly; Rev 20:7-14 is after the thousand years have ended......    And Rev 20:4 states that only the martyred saints will come to life and reign with Christ for the 1000 years.   At the GWT Judgement is when 1 Cor 15:50-56 takes place also. Only then, will Death be no more.

Your belief of any resurrection of the dead, other than those killed for their faith, or any changing of the living, before the GWT, is false teaching

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