LuftWaffle Posted March 23, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2017 18 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said: No they don't. The idea of weeping and gnashing of teeth and eternal torment are plenty clear enough here Be careful here because you are casting doubt as to the veracity of God's word just like Satan did when the serpent asked Eve Hath God said.....and ye shall not surely die. Same difference here. The soul doesn't die. The lake of fire would not even exist if there was such a thing as annihilationism or conditional immortality. I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion using scripture, theology and philosophy about this issue. If you're going to attempt to get personal and paint me as a danger, then that isn't much of an argument. Now, you said that the soul doesn't die, and yet Jesus says: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28) Are you sure that you're not the one on the wrong side of God's word? The only evidence that you've offered for you claim is that souls must be immortal because otherwise the lake of fire wouldn't be necessary and I'm assuming that you're assuming that the lake of fire is a place souls live forever in torment. In essence then you assuming what needs to be proved. I believe the lake of fire will in fact be how the unsaved will be killed, so my view is perfectly compatible with the existence of a lake of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMatrixHasU71 Posted March 23, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,573 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 723 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/10/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2017 Just now, LuftWaffle said: I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion using scripture, theology and philosophy about this issue. If you're going to attempt to get personal and paint me as a danger, then that isn't much of an argument. Now, you said that the soul doesn't die, and yet Jesus says: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28) Are you sure that you're not the one on the wrong side of God's word? The only evidence that you've offered for you claim is that souls must be immortal because otherwise the lake of fire wouldn't be necessary and I'm assuming that you're assuming that the lake of fire is a place souls live forever in torment. In essence then you assuming what needs to be proved. I believe the lake of fire will in fact be how the unsaved will be killed, so my view is perfectly compatible with the existence of a lake of fire. I don't want to keep arguing with someone who says that weeping and gnashing of teeth and the "smoke of their torment arising FOREVER can be seen as NO eternal torment. I have proven myself just by those scriptures. 615 // apokteinw // apokteino // ap-ok-ti'-no // from 575 and kteino (to slay); v AV - kill 55, slay 14, put to death 6; 75 1) to kill in any way whatever 1a) to destroy, to allow to perish 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish 2a) to inflict mortal death 2b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted March 23, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said: I don't want to keep arguing with someone who says that weeping and gnashing of teeth and the "smoke of their torment arising FOREVER can be seen as NO eternal torment. I have proven myself just by those scriptures. 615 // apokteinw // apokteino // ap-ok-ti'-no // from 575 and kteino (to slay); v AV - kill 55, slay 14, put to death 6; 75 1) to kill in any way whatever 1a) to destroy, to allow to perish 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish 2a) to inflict mortal death 2b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isa 34:9-10) The language of smoke rising forever is a figure of speech indicating utter destruction. Do you believe that Edom is still burning to this day? Weeping and gnashing teeth does not prove what you need it to prove. Mary Magdaleen wept and the pharisees gnashed their teeth at Jesus. Weeping and gnashing of teeth when used elsewhere in the bible doesn't refer to torture but to anger and regret. I'm certain the unsaved will be angry and have regret when they lose out on life. But tell me, why did you say that the soul cannot die, when Jesus said that men can only kill the body, but God can destroy both in hell? Are you selecting 2b as the meaning of death because it suits your view? Why not 1 or 1a or 2 or 2a? What exegetical principle led you to 2b? Edited March 23, 2017 by LuftWaffle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 19/03/2017 at 9:24 AM, Opywang said: The whole point is that I'm encouraging all of y'all to research what I have discover if you do not believe me go do your research read about, and find out. I did my research, and I found out that we're being misleading, and it is not what it seem. Read about what Jesus is talking about that we're going to hell, and read about what he mean by little children. Jesus talked about many things ,which cannot be understood by many christians . Hell, exists right here on earth already for many ,as does a form of 'heaven' . Jesus has already 'judged' ,but the Final Judgment is still to come . So in a way you are correct that 'hell' is not eternal except for a few who do not ever want to know Jesus . The ones who will go to 'hell ' forever are His own who deny Him still "the Synagogue of Satan ,who have created the 'Beast System', which many christians unknowingly follow,while witnessing before their eyes the results of this system .So many are so blind ,they will not see . Matt 13 :13,15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4LdKHVCzRDj2 Posted March 23, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,453 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 1,453 Days Won: 6 Joined: 11/02/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1991 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Quote Is Hell for Real? Yes. Hell is very real, and those that will go to there will experience ever lasting torment, suffering in eternal fire which does not rest. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41 It won't stop. Is suffering in hell that bad? It is. And it is much worse than any of us can ever imagine. "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" - Mark 9:47 The devil and his angels are already confirmed they will be thrown in there. And they want you to go too, they know there's no place like heaven and there's no better thing than living in the presence of the Lord and serving Him. They will make use of deceiving tactics to make you believe hell is not going to be that bad. That deceive many people into thinking hell is temporary; it is not, suffering in hell is eternal. Hell sounds so bad many people prefer to believe it does not exist. Then hell is like Jesus and the Word of God told us. Do not be deceived. As sinners, we all deserve to be thrown in hell. Because we have sinned against God. The good news is that we do not have to experience suffering in hell: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 Accept Jesus Christ today if you haven't done so! God loves us! On 3/19/2017 at 2:23 AM, Opywang said: I watch this video, and this video show me that maybe Hell is not as bad as the Bible claimed. Well, you choose in who to believe: God, or man. But be sure that if you do not believe what God said to us through Jesus Christ and His Word, you are making Him a liar. And obviously, God does not lie. One more good news is that God forgives. Edited March 23, 2017 by 4LdKHVCzRDj2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Why would accepting Christ as Savior have the eternal consequence of living with Christ forever, but rejecting Christ not have the eternal consequence of living separated from God for ever? For me, it is simple, in that as you say , having Christ living in you is 'heaven ', and hell is to be deprived of His lifegiving Light . It is often evident ,already ,in the faces of those who deny Him long term , so for me 'heaven or hell , begins right here on earth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,826 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2017 On 3/20/2017 at 8:02 PM, OneLight said: The reason you cannot see this is because it is a hard message to see. IT take Revelation in account. Hopefully, you will be able to see how God worked this together far before John gave us Revelation. God will judge them by their hearts upon Judgment day. No, Paul was not referencing believers, though his audience would of been believers. Lets dissect this passage. for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves Pay close attention to what is being said. Gentiles, who do not have the law, as they were never taught the law, and probably never heard of the law, do, by nature, what is acquired by the law. Seems to me that they must of received some sort of guidance from God if they are obeying His laws. Not knowing God as we do, they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, even though they do not know it is the Holy Spirit. These are people who know nothing about Gods ways outside of what He has shown them through His creation, as spoken of in Romans 1 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness This continues to reflect the explanation above. Their conscience leads them and bears witness of their heart, where God places His natural law. and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. We are convicted for our sins as the Holy Spirit works in us, accusing of of our actions. The Holy Spirit has been working in us ever since we were first convicted of sin before becoming a Christian. If they do not follow what God has placed in their heart, they feel accused. If they do, they are blessed, excusing the fact that they do not personally know God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. When will they be judged and how? They will be judged "in the day when God will judge the secrets of Men by Jesus Christ. Sounds like the Great White Throne Judgment to me.. Reading Revelation 20:11-15, lets take a look at verse 12: And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. Books were opened. What are in those books? Their works. Consider that when a Gentile who does not have the law, by nature DO the things in the law a work. God really doesn't need books to know what someone has done. He looks at their heart more than anything else as it is our heart that drives us to do what we do. Remember that out of our heart our mouth speaks? I believe also that out of our heart, we act. For all so many years we have been told that the word "dead" in the above passage meant spiritual dead. I would disagree for this reason. The physically dead are who are mentioned in this verse, both those in hell, and those who are not n hell, but in the sea. Why would someone be dead in the sea if they were spiritually dead? Wouldn't they be in hell awaiting judgment for their rejection of Christ? We continue to read: The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Only those who were told of Jesus and accepted His gift of salvation were not judged in the Great White Throne Judgment. All other, Gentiles who never heard of God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, never taught by man the meaning of salvation, are standing before Christ Jesus for judgement for they are not sealed with the Holy Spirit, the promise given to those who are able to make the choice. To be sure, I am against Universal Salvation and all it stands for, everyone being saved. Yet, I am very open to the fact that God works in mysterious ways and we do not hold the key to a full understanding of salvation through what we know of scripture. Hope this helped. Those people from Romans chapter 1:, and 2:, which you have come to believe that because of their faith in God that he is the Creator, and or of their good consience, but without knowledge of JESUS CHRIST that they are saved , and that their knowledge of God and or their good consience is what is needed for Heaven, is against the truth of the Gospel, and against the words of JESUS CHRIST. You must also know that those people are Idolaters, and come from idolatric background, and perhaps they die idolaters, and some of them they prosecuted and kill they faithful in Jesus Christ those who brought to them the good news of Jesus Christ the ETERNAL LIFE. And if you believe they are co-heirs of Heaven together with JESUS CHRIST, you are sencerly mistaken , but still mistaken. And where did they get the ETERNAL LIFE from without JESUS CHRIST, How can they be under the blood of Jesus Christ without faith in Jesus Christ , that he died for the forgiveness of our sins. I very much dough that when Paul or the other faithful died in the hands of those who believe God is the Creator, and or those who had a good consience, and that will include the Jews. I don't think so at that moment Paul said; See you in Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2017 30 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: Those people from Romans chapter 1:, and 2:, which you have come to believe that because of their faith in God that he is the Creator, and or of their good consience, but without knowledge of JESUS CHRIST that they are saved , and that their knowledge of God and or their good consience is what is needed for Heaven, is against the truth of the Gospel, and against the words of JESUS CHRIST. You must also know that those people are Idolaters, and come from idolatric background, and perhaps they die idolaters, and some of them they prosecuted and kill they faithful in Jesus Christ those who brought to them the good news of Jesus Christ the ETERNAL LIFE. And if you believe they are co-heirs of Heaven together with JESUS CHRIST, you are sencerly mistaken , but still mistaken. And where did they get the ETERNAL LIFE from without JESUS CHRIST, How can they be under the blood of Jesus Christ without faith in Jesus Christ , that he died for the forgiveness of our sins. I very much dough that when Paul or the other faithful died in the hands of those who believe God is the Creator, and or those who had a good consience, and that will include the Jews. I don't think so at that moment Paul said; See you in Heaven. As I said, many will not see the truth behind what I said as they are trained to accept that Jesus cannot show Himself to others if they don't have someone to teach them or the bible themselves. Jesus can save any way He wants. He does not need our approval based on our understanding of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,826 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, OneLight said: As I said, many will not see the truth behind what I said as they are trained to accept that Jesus cannot show Himself to others if they don't have someone to teach them or the bible themselves. Jesus can save any way He wants. He does not need our approval based on our understanding of scripture. Paul did not teach that, the other disciples and Jesus, or the prophets did not teach that, and this is not your own , you have read some book to persuade you to that, for some reason I believe, we can discuss that matter if you want, maybe it will help. You know that Jesus has die for all, so everyone whether in this life or after they will have the chance to hear the Gospel preach to them and believe or denied. Edited March 26, 2017 by Your closest friendnt Add a paragraph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Paul did not teach that, the other disciples and Jesus, or the prophets did not teach that, and this is not your own , you have read some book to persuade you to that, for some reason I believe, we can discuss that matter if you want, maybe it will help. You know that Jesus has die for all, so everyone whether in this life or after they will have the chance to hear the Gospel preach to them and believe or denied. No, I do not read other books to understand scripture. They have a tendency of adding other peoples thoughts to what the Holy Spirit is teaching, and that can be confusing to people. It seems like you think I need help understanding what God shows me. I am satisfied to know what God cannot be placed in the boxes humans try to keep Him in. Stop and think about what most people believe. God Himself said that "For God so loved the world" ... what does that mean? Does it mean only those whom the apostles can reach, or only those who can hear about Him through the teachings of others, or does it mean what He said, the world? There are some indigenous people who still have not heard of Jesus. Will He automatically through them into the lake of fire because of their location, a place where Jesus has never been known? Of will He, as spoken in Romans 2 that He will judge their heart? Think about His love for His creation, not about what you have been taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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