Rev. 12: Heavenly Sign to appear in 2017 - What could it mean?

[101G]

GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second, you error in all your assertions

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

of interpretation that you and several others know nothing about. And your belief that "scripture was given for every event" makes no sense when it comes to good interpretation.

understand this,  2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". so I gave none, only scriptures to prove what I was is true. 

11 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Keep in mind verse one said, "which must shortly come to pass;" The interlinear words it like this

the Greek Interlinear Bible (NT) says the same thing as the KJV, you can find it at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

12 hours ago, fixerupper said:

be hereafter;

You can't apply any of this to Herod.  John would have just been born in 4 AD when Herod died!  And that's NOT the time period the passage is refering to.

yes you gave the answer yourself, ""to have seen or perceived;" hence, "to know, to have knowledge of," whether absolutely, as in Divine knowledge. So to help you out with this...

(SMILE)... It helps YOU, because, hath seen is perceived by, and perceived means become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand. see that word "UNDERSTAND". now Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, G1492 εἴδω eido (ei'-d̮ō) v.
1. (properly) to see (but not limited to the eye).
2. (by implication, in the perfect tense only) to personally know (i.e. to have seen or have experienced something by firsthand observation).
3. (by extension) to personally know how (to do).
4. (also) to see how (it is done).
KJV: be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot 

OK, yes, now you beginning to "UNDERSTAND".... (smile)

PS understand that the book of REVELATION is about our Lord Jesus THE CHRIST. him only is this REVELATION is about, and no one else. so keep that in mind, ok.

[Daniel 11:36]

No one knows the time .... when the fullness of the Gentiles is over the Lord will bring His tribulation in which all of "believing" will be saved [Romans 11:25-26]

[other one]

That chapter in revelation is speaking of the devil and his followers being kicked out of heaven and thrown down here. I would suggest that is what we should be looking for if anything concerning the signs.

 

[iamlamad]

On 7/16/2017 at 7:51 PM, fixerupper said:

There is a method of interpretation that you and several others know nothing about. And your belief that "scripture was given for every event" makes no sense when it comes to good interpretation.  Take a look at the passage...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Keep in mind verse one said, "which must shortly come to pass;" The interlinear words it like this...

"To-SHOW to-THE SLAVES OF-Him what IS-binding TO-BE-BECOMING....

NOT A HINT OF ANYTHING PAST in verse 1.  BUT ALL FUTURE SINCE JOHN WAS TOLD, "things which must shortly come to pass;."

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

You can't apply any of this to Herod.  John would have just been born in 4 AD when Herod died!  And that's NOT the time period the passage is refering to.  YOU READ IT AGAIN!  I think most bibles have this one a bit wrong.  This is how it's worded in the interlinear...

Write-you which you-perceived and which they-are and which is-about to-be-coming AFTER THESE.

Now look at what Vines says...

From the same root as eidon, "to see," is a perfect tense with a present meaning, signifying, primarily, "to have seen or perceived;" hence, "to know, to have knowledge of," whether absolutely, as in Divine knowledge.
So to help you out with this...

This is a tricky verse to get right.  It's easily misunderstood and I'm not sure any bible really has it right.  I'm not even sure I have it right. I'm about convinced most bibles don't have it right.  In my view far more English words are required to describe what's said in Greek.  

John is instructed to write what he perceived in 90 AD.   Vines isn't always right, but he said the word "eidon, "to see," is a perfect tense with a present meaning.

The interlinear, i.e. the Textus receptus, words it different...

Write-you which you-perceive and which they-are and which is-about to-be-coming AFTER THESE.  

"Write the things which thou hast seen" is misleading if you use it in the context outside of the vision like you do.
If anything, the things that John had seen was his prophecy to the seven churches in Chapter 2-3 which he was likely familiar with.  

And the things which are,...would be the throne of God etc. in chapter 4-5.

And the things which shall be hereafter;...

Hereafter what?  After John's prophecy of the seven churches AND his vision of the throne in heaven etc.  Hereafter begins in Chapter 6 whith the first seal. 

It could easily be understood like this and I think this may be close to right...

"Write what you perceived in the visions of things that are and are to come."

I'm kind of discouraged at arguing this and other things with people who just don't care about good hermeneutical ethics.  There are ways of figuring things out.  But you can't go around saying Revelation 12 is a prophecy about Herod the Great when it's clear this is in an end-time context.  

I think GINOLJC probably was closer than you to the truth of this passage.

Suppose I call you and tell you to come over to my house Saturday for some grilled steak, and after the steak, we will then discuss Friday's football game.

We enjoy some steaks, and then settle down for a discussion of the football game.  It was a bad game, and our team did not win. Neither of us really wanted to discuss it. We were both very disappointed in the outcome of the game, and within a few minutes of discussing the game, I remembered that you were going to go fishing last Saturday, so I ask you about that, and you launch into a discussion of an incredible fishing trip.

Now then, did we lie? We said we would discuss Friday's football game. And we did. We did NOT say that was all that we would discuss. So we fulfilled exactly what we said we were going to do.

John was told, " What thou seest, write in a book." John saw, but he also HEARD. He wrote both what he saw and what he heard. Did John disobey? No, he DID write what he saw. He just wrote about what he heard also. Jesus did not tell him NOT to write what he heard. It was certainly NOT a silent film he watched, for he heard things. If God had not wanted him to write about sounds, He could have made it a silent vision. God chose to add sounds.

John was told, " Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; " He was NOT told that this would be ALL he would write. There is no "only" in these words. To say then that every word from this verse on MUST BE future events is silly: that is not what God said. The truth is, John DID write exactly what He saw (in the vision) and what he heard - even though God did not specifically tell John, "write what you hear..."

To argue then that something in say chapter 12 cannot be a historic event would be to argue only for the sake of arguing and not really arguing over scripture and the intent of the Author in the scripture.

For example, when we read:

Rev. 5:⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Can we determine any kind of timing by these words? It is speaking about past events, current events or future events?

John had been in the throne room [95 AD], and seeing things and describing them for some time. He saw a throne room WITHOUT Jesus Christ- and we can be sure of this because He did not write of seeing Jesus Christ. IF Jesus had been at the right hand of the Father, we can be sure John would have written it. But here in chapter five, suddenly a new person arrives in the throne room that was not there a moment before: Jesus Christ appears as a Lamb having been slain. Did John REALLY see a Lamb? No, it is symbolism. Dead and slain lambs would not be standing. Jesus is the Lamb of God. The book of life is really the Lamb's book of life. From this verse we can know that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High God, suddenly appeared in the throne room of heaven.

From the previous verse: "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" we know that not only did He suddenly appear, but He was just found worthy to take this book into His own hands and break the seals. Next, we see in this verse 6 above that Jesus appeared with "seven horns and seven eyes" which John tells us are the seven spirits of God. Then we learn He is "sent" forth. 

So, do we know from another verse about the Holy Spirit sent? Yes: John 16:

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus was telling his disciples that when He departs [earth} and ascends to heaven, then He will send the Holy Spirit back down to them.  In fact, Rev. 5:6 is the fulfilling of John 16:7. It shows Jesus ascending back into the throne room He left 32 years previously, and at that moment the Holy Spirit is sent down.

Therefore We CAN see timing in Rev. 5:6: it is the very moment Jesus entered the throne room He left 32 years previously. Therefore the timing is around 32 AD. We can determine this from the very words written.  Without any doubt then, we can acertain that John was writing of a historic time. It was 95 AD and John was writing of an event of 32 AD. Just keep in mind, John was writing exactly what He saw.  God was giving John this vision so GOD chose to show John that moment in history that Jesus ascended into the throne room and sent the Holy Spirit down.

God had asked me a question: "WHY was the Holy Spirit still seen in the throne room in John's vision in chapter 4? He said to me: "I ascended many years before John saw this vision and I said that I would send the Holy Spirit down as soon as I ascended."

I could not answer His question. Nor could I answer the other questions He asked me. Finally, after weeks of trying to answer His questions, He suddeny spoke again: "Go and study chapter 12."

I did not want to study chapter 12! I wanted the answer to His questions on chapters 4 & 5! But I was obedient, and turned to chapter 12. When my bible was turned to that chapter, He spoke again and gave me a synopsis:

"This chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." 

So I counted 32 times. I acknowledged to God that this chapter was indeed about the dragon.  Then He continued: "I also CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when I was a child: those first five verses were a 'history lesson" for John."

So what is the REAL meaning of Rev. 12:1-5? Is it about a future 70th week? Or is it about how King Herod tried to murder Him as a child? Well, Jesus Christ, the head of the church, spoke words to me that these verses were about HIM as a child. And if we actually study the words, it is indeed about Israel about to bring forth the long awaited Messiah. Mary was of Israel, and she brought forth the man child what would in the future rule the world with a rod of Iron. 

However, we know that King Herod attempted to murder the Messiah while he was a very young child, certainly under 2 years old.

Now, is is possible these verses carry a second meaning - a meaning related to something in the future? It is possible. All I know is what the Lord spoke to me.

(For the readers, I heard the voice of Jesus Christ and I heard the words He spoke. He is the same God, yesterday, today and forever. He spoke in the past, He speaks now, and He will continue to speak. After all, Jesus said, "my sheep know my voice."  )

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, other one said:

That chapter in revelation is speaking of the devil and his followers being kicked out of heaven and thrown down here. I would suggest that is what we should be looking for if anything concerning the signs.

 

True: the devil will be thrown down. Never again will he accuse the brethren. But what is the TIMING of this war in heaven? It will begin at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. And the 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint of the week.

I don't expect to see this sign. I am convinced the rapture will take the Bride of Christ out of here over 3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

"Rev. 12: Heavenly Sign to appear in 2017 - What could it mean?"

I think there is a very grave danger in assigning a year, let alone any specific date, to prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled. What happens if we're wrong? Harold Camping comes prominently to mind as does several others in the past.

I doubt seriously if anyone has searched this heavenly sign back through history to see for sure it has never happened before! This sign of Virgo with the moon under her feet appears every month so one would have to search 12 times 2017 times! That would be over 24,000 searches!  I searched from maybe 10 AD back to 10 BC and found it perfectly fits Sept. 2 BC. Virgo was "clothed in the Sun," and the moon was at her feet. In fact, the fact that planets are there in her crown was not mentioned by John. There are 12 STARS that make up her crown.

Therefore I doubt if anything will happen on this date so many are looking for in  2017.

Edited July 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[other one]

Other than the devil being kicked out of heaven (if that's what the scripture is telling us) I don't think we can put it with anything else.     

I don't think it wise to try to tie too much together with different scripture that doesn't obviously go together....       I'm just not going to fall for the ET come to save the world thing that could happen if they are thrown down here at the end of this year.

[other one]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

I doubt seriously if anyone has searched this heavenly sign back through history to see for sure it has never happened before! I searched from maybe 10 AD back to 10 BC and found it perfectly fits Sept. 2 BC. Virgo was "clothed in the Sun," and the moon was at her feet. In fact, the fact that planets are there in her crown was not mentioned by John. There are 12 STARS that make up her crown.

Therefore I doubt if anything will happen on this date so many are looking for in  2017.

there were not twelve stars for her crown and Jupiter was not in the location with all the other signs......    and I did run my program back to the time when Adam and Eve were here....   took two weeks of spare time.   it hasn't happened and if you do the math on all the orbits, it isn't happening again for a really long time.

I don't even know if we will know if they come down here if they hide themselves from us......

but like I said should we have disclosure about ET's existing and they are coming here to help mankind.....   I wouldn't fall for it.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, other one said:

there were not twelve stars for her crown and Jupiter was not in the location with all the other signs......    and I did run my program back to the time when Adam and Eve were here....   took two weeks of spare time.   it hasn't happened and if you do the math on all the orbits, it isn't happening again for a really long time.

I don't even know if we will know if they come down here if they hide themselves from us......

but like I said should we have disclosure about ET's existing and they are coming here to help mankind.....   I wouldn't fall for it.

The astronomer, Professor Thorley, has shown that there are exactly twelve stars surrounding the head of Virgo as we view them from the earth. If one will look at Norton's Star Atlas, twelve visible stars will be seen around Virgo's head. They are, according to astronomical terminology: (1) Pi, (2) Nu, (3) Beta, (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota - these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9) Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta, (12) Omicron - these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo.

From Stellarium:

1. Zavijiva
2. u Leo
3. e Leo
4. Another Greek letter Leo
5. P2 Leo
6. 58 Leo
7. C Leo
8. x Leo
9. I Leo
10. Another Greek letter Leo
11. 75 Leo
12. T Leo

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[other one]

Only 9 of those are considered part of Leo though they may be visible.  Why don't we just wait till the end of the year and see if anything comes our way. If not it's no big deal.....  If it does a lot of people will fall victim to it.