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Rev. 12: Heavenly Sign to appear in 2017 - What could it mean?


rollinTHUNDER

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1 minute ago, Keras said:

So do you put yourself on Enoch's level? 

Enoch, Elijah, and probably Moses went to heaven and later the two witnesses will go there. This does in no way mean there will be a general rapture of the Church. 

Matthew 25:32 does not say anything about anyone going to heaven .  I asked for a scripture that actually says God will take His people to heaven. Not assumptions, inferences, suppositions, conjecture and pure guesswork, making verses say what you want. That's not good exegesis and unacceptable as proof. 

But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

10 minutes ago, Keras said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

Consider the context. Should I nickname you nicodemus? LOL

 

12 minutes ago, Keras said:

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

Again, CONTEXT! This seems to be a pattern with you . CONTEXT

I wont bother to quote every single scripture you posted. With each one,you take it out of context. You must ask the HOLY SPIRIT TO TEACH YOU. Worship in truth and spirit.

 

 

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Rev 7:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

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BEJ, The context of my quotes does not reverse their meaning. It is only your opinion that does that. 

John 14:1-2 Says nothing about people going to live in heaven. The New Jerusalem comes down to earth after the Mill. Revelation 21:1-4. THEN, those worthy will live in it. 

Rev 7:9 is an earthly scene. Proved by the first 3 verses of that chapter setting the earthly scene. There is no mention of any change of location. 

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whoops! Posted on the wrong thread.
 

Edited by Psalms37:4
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Stay on TOPIC! :)

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Ok... I'll break down the Revelation 12 is talking about the removal of the righteous, and at the beginning of the tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble / Daniel's 70th week.

The passage has a dual application.... Mary and Yeshua and Herod.... and Israel, the church, and Satan.  The first singular.  The second collective.

In verse 5, the child is "caught up" and that is the Greek "harpazo" which is a deliberate, forceful, snatching up.  There is no way the Messiah was snatched up to God and the throne when He was born.  And even His ascension didn't qualify.   So that only can mean the "body of Messiah" the church.

But it says the the child will rule with a rod of iron, and that will be a combined deal.. Messiah and the church.  Revelation 2:26-27.

And the child is caught up as soon as it is born.  And the child is born as soon as the woman goes into labor.  The Church was not born at Pentacost, it was conceived by the Holy Spirit when the tongues of fire came down upon those in the upper room.  And the church has been growing ever since... being nutured by the Holy Spirit until it is time to be delivered.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Some think this applies to Israel becoming a nation again. Possible dual application, but I don't agree.  Peter calls the church a holy nation in 

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And we compare the Isaiah passage with.....

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

So this labor of Israel is clearly referenced as at the beginning of the Time of Jacob's trouble / 70th week of Daniel / Great Tribulation.

Satan is totally bent out of shape that he was not able to consume the child (church) so he then goes after the woman.  The main reason for that is the requirement that Israel acknowledge collectively their offense of rejecting Messiah, and cry out for His return.   If Satan can destroy Israel, then that requirement cannot be fulfilled and the Messiah return......

 

Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Chapter 6
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.

Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

And when with the removal of the righteous happen?  At a future Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets.   This Moed is the only one that falls on the first of a month.  There is no way to ascertain the start time until the new moon has been confirmed.  And it is also a two day Moed.   This is why it is called the "day that no man knows". No man can know the day or the hour of it's beginning or the last trump that closes the Moed.  It is also the day of the awakening blast, or Yom Teruah, which alludes to the resurrection.  The 30 days of Elul prior to Rosh Hashanah are called the Days of Return and Days of Repentance.

And Paul referenced this Moed in... 

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The twinkling of an eye is when the last trump of the Moed is blown.  it is a long lasting blast.  The twinkling on an eye is a reference to the last sliver of sun still visible at the end of the second day of the Moed.  The Last Trump is blown at this time.    This Moed has the gathering and removal of the righteous, both dead and alive, in view.  it is also the Moed that calls for the Messiah to claim His bride.  These traditions of the Moed were established long before Yeshua's first coming.  

Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets is a two day Moed, Tishri 1 & 2.  Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement is on the 10th of the month.  There are 7 days in between called the Days of Awe, that correspond to the 70th week of Daniel.

God has thus far been a real stickler for following the festivals, right down to the day they occur..  After all, He called them in Leviticus 23, Moed or appointed times, and Miqra or rehearsals.  Only the fall festivals remain.  And of those, Rosh Hashanah / Trumpets is the next one in the lineup.  

As a side note... Paul referencing the Last Trump could not have been the 7th trumpet of Revelation.  That information hadn't been given Yeshua yet, let alone Paul.  How do I know that....

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Yeshua got the information from the Father.  He gave it to John to deliver to us.  That is generally acknowledged to be in the 90's of the first century.  Paul was killed around the 60's.  So there is no way he could have known about the 7 trumpets or be alluding to them.

Edited by OldCoot
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When will these thing be? No one knows, not the angels, only the Father. Picking times, days, years is a waste of time. If no one knows the day or the hour, its no good trying to suggest a year?

Matthew 24:3, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:36, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

When will these thing be? No one knows, not the angels, only the Father. Picking times, days, years is a waste of time. If no one knows the day or the hour, its no good trying to suggest a year?

Matthew 24:3, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:36, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But we are to stay observant and in anticipation of Messiah's return, and we are to know the seasons.  No one is picking days or years in this discussion.  The closest I came to that is mentioning fulfilling a future feast appointment. 

Yeshua held those accountable for knowing the day when He was here.  Daniel had made it clear that 69 weeks of years from the time of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the messiah's entry into Jerusalem.   But they failed to see it.

Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Leviticus 23 outlines the appointed feasts days.  In the Hebrew text, they are called sacred appointments and rehearsals.  They are rehearsals for the fulfillment by the the Messiah.   He fulfilled Passover, Unleavended Bread, First Fruits, and Shavuot (Pentacost) already. The fall festivals remain..... Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles.  

Both Yeshua and Paul used terminology in their dissertations on end times events that is associated with Rosh Hashanah, or Feast of Trumpets.  Your quote from Matthew 24:36 is a veiled reference to Rosh Hashanah.   Paul likewise in 1 Corinthians 15:52, was clearly using terminology associated with Rosh Hashanah.  Since that is the next festival on the hit parade, it might be wise to observe the signs of it's approaching.  And it is the one feast that no one can determine the actual day or hour of it's beginning.  All of the other feasts fall on schedules based on other feasts or in the middle of the month.  Trumpets falls on the first of the month of Tishri.  That cannot be determined when it starts until the new moon is confirmed and certified. So no one can know the day or the hour.

Besides, there is a reward for those that are looking for His coming.  My guess is that those who dismiss all of this as a waste of time, then He might feel it is a waste of time to hand out rewards to those.  Some might not consider it a neat deal, but It would be cool to have the Messiah reward me for diligently seeking His coming and being watchful.  

2 Timothy 4:8 (ISV) The victor’s crown of righteousness is now waiting for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on the day that he comes, and not only to me but also to all who eagerly wait for his appearing.

The 30 days before Rosh Hashanah each year are called the Season of Teshuvah... the time of return and repentance.   That is always a good idea to take a look at one's life and make sure they are cleansed of all unrighteousness during this time.  we are in that time right now.  Will this Rosh Hashanah be the one?   Just like Yeshua said.... Only the Father knows.

Edited by OldCoot
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20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

These are not angels [Zechariah 14:5; Revelation 19:14]

Angels are holy. Saints are holy. The elect is holy. Coming with "holy ones" is not clear by itself. Paul is clear.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
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7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Ok... I'll break down the Revelation 12 is talking about the removal of the righteous, and at the beginning of the tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble / Daniel's 70th week.

The passage has a dual application.... Mary and Yeshua and Herod.... and Israel, the church, and Satan.  The first singular.  The second collective.

In verse 5, the child is "caught up" and that is the Greek "harpazo" which is a deliberate, forceful, snatching up.  There is no way the Messiah was snatched up to God and the throne when He was born.  And even His ascension didn't qualify.   So that only can mean the "body of Messiah" the church.

But it says the the child will rule with a rod of iron, and that will be a combined deal.. Messiah and the church.  Revelation 2:26-27.

And the child is caught up as soon as it is born.  And the child is born as soon as the woman goes into labor.  The Church was not born at Pentacost, it was conceived by the Holy Spirit when the tongues of fire came down upon those in the upper room.  And the church has been growing ever since... being nutured by the Holy Spirit until it is time to be delivered.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Some think this applies to Israel becoming a nation again. Possible dual application, but I don't agree.  Peter calls the church a holy nation in 

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And we compare the Isaiah passage with.....

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

So this labor of Israel is clearly referenced as at the beginning of the Time of Jacob's trouble / 70th week of Daniel / Great Tribulation.

Satan is totally bent out of shape that he was not able to consume the child (church) so he then goes after the woman.  The main reason for that is the requirement that Israel acknowledge collectively their offense of rejecting Messiah, and cry out for His return.   If Satan can destroy Israel, then that requirement cannot be fulfilled and the Messiah return......

 

Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Chapter 6
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.

Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

And when with the removal of the righteous happen?  At a future Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets.   This Moed is the only one that falls on the first of a month.  There is no way to ascertain the start time until the new moon has been confirmed.  And it is also a two day Moed.   This is why it is called the "day that no man knows". No man can know the day or the hour of it's beginning or the last trump that closes the Moed.  It is also the day of the awakening blast, or Yom Teruah, which alludes to the resurrection.  The 30 days of Elul prior to Rosh Hashanah are called the Days of Return and Days of Repentance.

And Paul referenced this Moed in... 

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The twinkling of an eye is when the last trump of the Moed is blown.  it is a long lasting blast.  The twinkling on an eye is a reference to the last sliver of sun still visible at the end of the second day of the Moed.  The Last Trump is blown at this time.    This Moed has the gathering and removal of the righteous, both dead and alive, in view.  it is also the Moed that calls for the Messiah to claim His bride.  These traditions of the Moed were established long before Yeshua's first coming.  

Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets is a two day Moed, Tishri 1 & 2.  Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement is on the 10th of the month.  There are 7 days in between called the Days of Awe, that correspond to the 70th week of Daniel.

God has thus far been a real stickler for following the festivals, right down to the day they occur..  After all, He called them in Leviticus 23, Moed or appointed times, and Miqra or rehearsals.  Only the fall festivals remain.  And of those, Rosh Hashanah / Trumpets is the next one in the lineup.  

As a side note... Paul referencing the Last Trump could not have been the 7th trumpet of Revelation.  That information hadn't been given Yeshua yet, let alone Paul.  How do I know that....

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Yeshua got the information from the Father.  He gave it to John to deliver to us.  That is generally acknowledged to be in the 90's of the first century.  Paul was killed around the 60's.  So there is no way he could have known about the 7 trumpets or be alluding to them.

I'm not convinced about the coming fulfillment of the fall feasts, did not Jesus atone for all those who call on him at the cross? Seems to me this fulfilled atonement as is recorded in Hebrews. In general if the feasts of the ancients are shadows and types, and Jesus came to fulfill these things, then looking to the feasts of Lev 23 gives us no more insight into the future cause the old ways are over. I know this won't be convincing to you, just saying.

It's the last few sentences that utterly destroy your credibility. I have seen this ridiculous notion pop up before; Paul can't know about the end of the age because he died before Jesus gave the full Revelation to John. The Godhead, which includes Jesus, transcends time and space, it has always existed. There is not anything that was made, that was not made by Jesus, this would include language and the bible, all of it. Jesus could tell any man anything about the end or the beginning of time and space, at any time. By your logic Joel could not know about the end of the age yet Joel declares, 

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, 

And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel knew about a heavenly trumpet, and much more, directly preceding the day of the Lord. This is not an earthly trumpet but sounds throughout the land. This is probably the last trumpet and means the last trump before the day of the Lord. I would imagine there will be trumpet sound in the kingdom for a variety of purposes but that's just a guess.

The point is Jesus is immortal and could have easily told Paul a great many things on the road to Damascus in an instant, one being a short outline of the coming of Jesus with associated events. You make a huge error in thinking mankind did more than pen the scriptures. ALL scripture is Holy Spirit inspired. The ONLY thing people did was transfer the truth of God to paper. 

So yes, Paul knew, as did many others about the end of the age.

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11 hours ago, Keras said:

So do you put yourself on Enoch's level? 

Enoch, Elijah, and probably Moses went to heaven and later the two witnesses will go there. This does in no way mean there will be a general rapture of the Church. 

Matthew 25:32 does not say anything about anyone going to heaven .  I asked for a scripture that actually says God will take His people to heaven. Not assumptions, inferences, suppositions, conjecture and pure guesswork, making verses say what you want. That's not good exegesis and unacceptable as proof. 

But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus said:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Are you saying that there is no pretrib rapture? Or that the church never goes to heaven at any time?

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