Jewels7 Posted March 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 713 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 27, 2017 4 hours ago, simplejeff said: There is one or more reference by YHWH to unclean children (any age? perhaps) ...... in HIS WORD. There is likewise some support that babies go to heaven, and that they don't, in HIS WORD. A lot of people seem to think it is already known or determined one way or the other.(but not by HIS WORD). I think you'd have to show in HIS WORD where God expressly states babies go to Hell. Can you do that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 27, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Jewels7 said: I think you'd have to show in HIS WORD where God expressly states babies go to Hell. Can you do that ? Well, several times "unclean" was referenced , as in nothing "unclean" enters heaven.... and the refence to which children are clean and which are unclean in the NEW TESTAMENT also.... and , why ? besides - NO ONE , in the last what, 2000 years, has shown any SCRIPTURE ("HIS WORD") that shows babies go to anywhere (including heaven) in general, except probably "to the grave" .... There is no INJUSTICE with YHWH THE CREATOR, so if ALL AND EVERY BABY along with all the children and adults who drowned in the flood are resurrected in shame and judgment, instead of to everlasting life, that is YHWH'S judgment, with perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge and with no iniquity in HIMSELF. Perhaps no one will know until they are resurrected. (and even then, perhaps not - YHWH'S CHOICE).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewels7 Posted March 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 713 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, simplejeff said: Well, several times "unclean" was referenced , as in nothing "unclean" enters heaven.... and the refence to which children are clean and which are unclean in the NEW TESTAMENT also.... and , why ? besides - NO ONE , in the last what, 2000 years, has shown any SCRIPTURE ("HIS WORD") that shows babies go to anywhere (including heaven) in general, except probably "to the grave" .... There is no INJUSTICE with YHWH THE CREATOR, so if ALL AND EVERY BABY along with all the children and adults who drowned in the flood are resurrected in shame and judgment, instead of to everlasting life, that is YHWH'S judgment, with perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge and with no iniquity in HIMSELF. Perhaps no one will know until they are resurrected. (and even then, perhaps not - YHWH'S CHOICE).... Well, being babies are not unclean this discussion is unwarranted in matters of actual scripture and God's grace. I think people that believe babies go to Hell are already made up in their own minds. And that has not a thing to do with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted March 27, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Jewels7 said: Well, being babies are not unclean this discussion is unwarranted in matters of actual scripture and God's grace. I think people that believe babies go to Hell are already made up in their own minds. And that has not a thing to do with God. Well, that's not what YHWH'S WORD says, remembering in contrast since the greatest portion of the world's population has always been unclean, (unsaved also), except potentially 2 times since the creation, and since YHWH says this (which you did not look up in the earlier/ever reference to YHWH'S WORD differentiating between clean and unclean (heathen) children) >>> from http://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/23-9.htm " ....‘else were they unclean;’ that is, heathen children, not to be owned as a holy seed, and therefore not to be admitted into covenant with God, as belonging to his holy people. That this is the true import of the words ακαθαρτα and αγια, will be apparent from the Scriptures, in which the heathen are styled the unclean, in opposition to the Jews, who were in covenant with God, and therefore styled a holy people...." and this "ἐπεὶ ἄρα κ.τ.λ[1121]] because according to that (if, namely, that ἡγίασται did not hold good; comp 1 Corinthians 5:10), i.e. because otherwise your children are unclean, profane. That Christians’ children are not profane, outside of the theocratic community and the divine covenant, and belonging to the unholy κόσμος, but, on the contrary, holy, is the conceded point from which Paul proves that the non-believing husband is sanctified through his believing wife; for just as in the children’s case, that which makes them holy is simply the specific bond of union with Christians (their parents); so, too, in the case of the mixed marriage, the same bond of union must have the same influence.[1123]" =================================================================Note that YHWH'S WORD gives assurance to ONE or TWO BELIEVING SPOUSE/PARENTS , not to heathen parents where both parents are unclean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Noodle Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 573 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2017 On 3/20/2017 at 0:23 PM, woundeddog said: I don't think we can presume 1.5 million Christians are aborted every year . This being said, yes, all babies return to the Father that gave them life. I think that helps when considering the emotional upset that arrives at the thought of babies being aborted. At least they all return to the Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woundeddog Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,370 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 1,054 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/21/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/18/1868 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 25 minutes ago, Danger Noodle said: I don't think we can presume 1.5 million Christians are aborted every year . yes we can-- if they are going to heaven- there was no other plan for their destiny-- if they grew up- they would have been Christians~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Noodle Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 573 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, woundeddog said: yes we can-- if they are going to heaven- there was no other plan for their destiny-- if they grew up- they would have been Christians~~ The soul returned to the source that gave it. Had the child been born they would have been able to grow to the age of accountability and through free will decided what path in life they would take. Which does not necessarily mean that of Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,831 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2017 On 3/20/2017 at 1:01 PM, missmuffet said: Yes, all babies do go to heaven. Then why is abortion wrong? Better we should all have died in infancy that to risk eternal hell, if this is true. Paul said if he could wish himself accursed to save his unbelieving Jewish people the solution would have been simple, open an abortion clinic. Maybe that would send him to hell but think of all the babies he saved from rejecting the Messiah... Do you see what's wrong with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,831 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2017 Doesn't it make much more sense that God knew before time began who would and who would not believe? Regardless if they ever heard the Gospel... or lived long enough to decide to believe... Think about it... Even with Moses and Abraham and David who lived before the cross he saved (in Abraham's Bosom til the cross opened heaven for them). Even before he could give them access to heaven, he knew who would believe and made it so he could save them once Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 28, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,831 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said: Probably one of the worst things I have ever seen written on a forum about infants who have died. No baby has rejected Jesus since they have not been given the opportunity yet. Some of the most convoluted "logic" I have ever seen. Your premise says that God holds people responsible for choices they have not yet made in a life they have not yet lived. Wow. If this offended you, I am sorry. But to assume all babies go to heaven who die in infancy must be aware of the logical conclusions. The bible says: John 3:16–18 (AV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You say "reject" as if one must have some guaranteed opportunity to accept or reject. Sir, the Bible says believe / unbelief. And that the condemnation is ALREADY determined / established / true. It would be more logical to say all babies don't go to heaven if they die before believing in Jesus Christ. BUT there's more to it than that!!! God foreknew all who would believe. The same way he provided for the believers before the cross he has provided for people who will believe but who die before they believe... If I offended you (say you lost a baby) I am sorry I was not minimizing your grief. I don't know how people can get through such a tragedy! But take heart! They have just as much chance of being a believer as they would have had they survived. Don't you see? God's biblical assurances are far better than people's mantras or slogans or wishful thinking. Romans 8:29 (AV) 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Sir, I hope you see there is a much more solid foundation in God's way than man's. My absurd example about abortion was hopefully so absurd everyone would know that it was intended to prove the point that ALL babies who die cannot possibly go to heaven but the Omniscient God knew before time began who would believe in his dear Son and that really matters to him!!!!!!!! 1 Corinthians 2:7 2 Timothy 1:9 Titus 1:2 Depending on which translation you use all speak of God figuring things out before time began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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