Forgive or pray for God to execute Judgment

[cherubim]

On March 25, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Abby-Joy said:

 

I have a very difficult situation happening this very moment, and has been ongoing .... I've watched my daughter suffer and grieve because her child was stolen from her by someone claiming to be her friend.  It's hard to see these people getting to raise my grandbaby and exclude the child's family from the joy of seeing her grow, learn, play, etc.  It's like they've ripped the hearts out of an entire family, and they take joy in it.  But these are people I choose to forgive and pray for .... IT IS NOT EASY!!!!!!!!!!  But... God knows and I pray and trust Him with my grandbaby ... and my daughter's heart .... it's hard to see her hurting.

I think one reason Jesus said to love, bless, do good, and pray for our enemies ... is because it removes the flesh that would like to hate and get even.  It brings us to the feet of Jesus ... and it releases the situation into God's hands.  But if we say we are the children of God, then we must choose to allow Him to form the image of His Son in us... Jesus forgave those who persecuted Him .... so should we.  

That's terrible.  How did your daughter's "friend" get her child???  I am far different than you.  I would turn over every stone until I got that child back.  How can you justify "accepting" the situation?  That child was given to your daughter, not her friend.

I know a believer whose life has been good - and she never fights or opposes anything; but if we never oppose anything, nothing is likely to get changed.

[appy]

Everyone has struggled with this. This hasn't bypassed anyone.   Having someone hurt us, or use us is painful.   Forgiving those who hurt or use you, is for your benefit more than it is for the person who wronged you.  First it releases you from anger and resentment.  Plus since God forgave us, we ought to be forgiving others, because you don't know when it will be you that might be in the wrong next time.  We as humans, have a tremendous debt of sin, that we could never pay.  But God in his love for us forgave us, simply because we asked him to.  So in turn we ought to be forgiving others debts against us in the same way. It is not our job to seek revenge on the wrong doer, because we ourselves have also done wrong.  It doesn't mean that you will forget the pain or event.  But it does mean you will not hold it against them and count them guilty or remain angry and bitter about it.  Let it go, be done with being angry or bitter.  You will find it easier to forgive once you let go of being angry or bitter towards someone.   As long as you want to remain angry about an event...that anger will grow because you are feeding it.   And the more it grows the harder it will be to forgive. 

Ephesians 4:26,27

  Be angry, yet do not sin. Do not let the sun set upon your anger, and do not give the devil a foothold.

 

Jesus gave us a wonderful example of forgiveness and why in Matthew 18 . 

 

Matthew 18:21 through 35

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"At this the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

 

[Churchmouse]

To love someone who you feel has wronged you, you must first get over yourself, which we do be both forgiving them for what they did and forgiving us, for being taken advantage of. People talk all day long about forgiving the other persn and then continue to carry around the anger within ourselves for being, quote/unquote stupid. If you don't forgive yourself you will be constantly on guard and carry this baggage with you through life and treat others as a potential manipulator instead of a potential friend. That doesn't work out, since people will sense your reluctance and wonder why.

It is beneficial to be cautious, but also to be measured in ones interactions with others. Loving them does not mean being a pawn or a mark. It is to show them kindness and consideration for who they are and their situation, in order for them to realize they are being acknowledged positively by you.

[cherubim]

23 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

I can't divulge more ... but no, you're not far different than me ... it is a very different situation and ongoing for a long time.  I cannot say more than that.  But I can't believe you assumed I'm not doing anything.  That is not the case.  

I didn't mean to come across as harsh - I'm sure it's very painful. I read a long time ago that some agency refused to hire Christians because they gave up too easily, and expected God to do what needed to be done.  I just had a situation that was very serious, where my daughter's ex attempted to get custody. He and his new wife use drugs, and it would have been a disaster.  I prayed very very hard, and asked others here to pray.  I also mounted a strong offense.  If you think it might help I can let you know what I did.  If your daughter has changed her life, if her child was taken due to something she did, she can petition the court for a new custody hearing.  But I would believe it to be wrong advice to tell her to roll over.  God gave her the child - not her friend/ former friend.  For someone to keep someone else's child, ripping him/her away from a birth mother - that's evil.

I encountered evil of that magnitude, and other evils throughout my life.  I have a difficult time squaring that with Scripture.

[cherubim]

1 hour ago, giggling appy said:

Everyone has struggled with this. This hasn't bypassed anyone.   Having someone hurt us, or use us is painful.   Forgiving those who hurt or use you, is for your benefit more than it is for the person who wronged you.  First it releases you from anger and resentment.  Plus since God forgave us, we ought to be forgiving others, because you don't know when it will be you that might be in the wrong next time.  We as humans, have a tremendous debt of sin, that we could never pay.  But God in his love for us forgave us, simply because we asked him to.  So in turn we ought to be forgiving others debts against us in the same way. It is not our job to seek revenge on the wrong doer, because we ourselves have also done wrong.  It doesn't mean that you will forget the pain or event.  But it does mean you will not hold it against them and count them guilty or remain angry and bitter about it.  Let it go, be done with being angry or bitter.  You will find it easier to forgive once you let go of being angry or bitter towards someone.   As long as you want to remain angry about an event...that anger will grow because you are feeding it.   And the more it grows the harder it will be to forgive. 

Ephesians 4:26,27

  Be angry, yet do not sin. Do not let the sun set upon your anger, and do not give the devil a foothold.

 

Jesus gave us a wonderful example of forgiveness and why in Matthew 18 . 

 

Matthew 18:21 through 35

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"At this the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

 

I would think that most have struggled with this.  When someone does evil, I think it's right to ostracize them. The church did it many years ago - even ex-communicating.  Some evil is so heinous, that to sweep it under the rug is dangerous.  It's a very hard, very complicated issue.  I just have not found sermons that have really hit the mark, and resolved the issues in my mind.  Years back Dear Abby printed a letter from a woman who said that her husband beat her (this is not my problem - I have a good husband).  She said that she went to a well-known pastor, who told her to "turn the other cheek."

Abby's response was to the point:  "I don't believe God expects you to turn the other cheek if the first one is black and blue."  So I think these verses are very open to misinterpretation.

I would like to have a settled feeling about certain people - one in particular.  But how can you feel settled, when that person is a danger and you are on high alert?  It's a hard thing.  I haven't seen teaching yet that really deals with the nuts and bolts of the issues.

 

[cherubim]

7 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

I know, and I hoped you would understand.  I've been praying for your situation.  My situation is most likely entirely different.  My daughter's child was not taken due to anything she did.  She got out of a DV situation and a "friend" offered "help"  ... she helped her right out of her child.  Our situation is very complex... but no, I have not been complacent on it at all... not by any means.  

Thank you very much for your prayers.  Domestic violence causes victims many issues, making *them* *appear* to be unfit.  I learned this through extensive research, and also through a psychiatrist.  I don't know what legal right your daughter's friend is standing on, but it can and should be challenged.  You should not acquiesce to a judge's authority - many people don't realize their own power until they flex it.  We are not completely out of the woods, but I told the judge we would not accept his decision.  I think it's necessary to challenge them. If you just go away quietly, it's akin to assent.  

That's really sad - I hope that you prevail.

[cherubim]

1 hour ago, Churchmouse said:

To love someone who you feel has wronged you, you must first get over yourself, which we do be both forgiving them for what they did and forgiving us, for being taken advantage of. People talk all day long about forgiving the other persn and then continue to carry around the anger within ourselves for being, quote/unquote stupid. If you don't forgive yourself you will be constantly on guard and carry this baggage with you through life and treat others as a potential manipulator instead of a potential friend. That doesn't work out, since people will sense your reluctance and wonder why.

It is beneficial to be cautious, but also to be measured in ones interactions with others. Loving them does not mean being a pawn or a mark. It is to show them kindness and consideration for who they are and their situation, in order for them to realize they are being acknowledged positively by you.

I don't know if this is possible - or even advisable - in all cases.  It's a thorny issue, interpreting what God's intentions are.  David prayed "...mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, has lifted up his heel against me..."   It has made me cautious, since the evil was so heinous, but yet I know satan can get a foothold through unforgiveness.  It's something many have struggled with through the ages. 

[Churchmouse]

1 minute ago, cherubim said:

I don't know if this is possible - or even advisable - in all cases.  It's a thorny issue, interpreting what God's intentions are.  David prayed "...mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, has lifted up his heel against me..."   It has made me cautious, since the evil was so heinous, but yet I know satan can get a foothold through unforgiveness.  It's something many have struggled with through the ages. 

We all interpret what is in the Bible. It's all we can do. I don't look back in the Old Testament for anything that I would place against anything in the new testament. David lived 800+ years previous to Christ and did things which would have gotten him stoned if he were any other person in Israel.

[cherubim]

29 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

I know, and I hoped you would understand.  I've been praying for your situation.  My situation is most likely entirely different.  My daughter's child was not taken due to anything she did.  She got out of a DV situation and a "friend" offered "help"  ... she helped her right out of her child.  Our situation is very complex... but no, I have not been complacent on it at all... not by any means.  

I hope that I didn't wound you further with my words - I am so close to the recent situation with my grandson, that my reactions are strong.  I know how deep the pain and distress must be.  I hope that my experience can help you in some way.  That is your grandchild, and I don't believe it is 'God's will' that you allow this convoluted situation to continue.  I would find a lawyer - if it takes food off your table - or cut out other expenses to afford to pay a good lawyer.  You are not likely to win without a lawyer.  Look up their reviews.

[cherubim]

1 minute ago, Churchmouse said:

We all interpret what is in the Bible. It's all we can do. I don't look back in the Old Testament for anything that I would place against anything in the new testament. David lived 800+ years previous to Christ and did things which would have gotten him stoned if he were any other person in Israel.

I'm unsure of separating the Old and New Testaments - Christ even quoted from the Psalms. I don't know the link, but the teaching is: "Praying the Psalms for Spiritual Warfare - is it Scriptural."  - it covers some of what I'm referring to.

I have to come back to the topic in awhile.