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Forgive or pray for God to execute Judgment


cherubim

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4 hours ago, Yowm said:

David does come to resolution...

Psalm 73:2-3,12-13,16-18 KJV
[2] But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. [3] For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. [12] Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. [13] Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. [16] When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;

[17] Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. [18] Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

 

Thank you for the reminder of that verse.  I prayed Psalm 73 numerous times when I saw that wicked apparently triumphed.  I just don't know that it comforted me all that much when the years went by and evildoers continued to prosper.  I guess I'll go back to God again and pray for enlightenment.

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1 hour ago, cherubim said:

Thank you for the reminder of that verse.  I prayed Psalm 73 numerous times when I saw that wicked apparently triumphed.  I just don't know that it comforted me all that much when the years went by and evildoers continued to prosper.  I guess I'll go back to God again and pray for enlightenment.

YHWH blessed me specifically* before I was saved to see in SCRIPTURE the evil of man triumphs in the physical world,  they all go on partying and shopping and giving in marriage (every day after another,  nothing changing toward good,  no one looking to YHWH (GOD) ) .....  

and to read the end of the book (REVELATION) all the way through along with the rest of all SCRIPTURE (OT AND NT)...

and see the astonishing wickednesses of society everywhere,  growing worse in our lifetimes, not better,  with the wicked being rewarded and the righteous being punished (just as JESUS was, and HE IS PERFECT ! without sin) ....

YHWH'S SALVATION becomes so much more full and rich and amazing when we see from HIS WORD what HE saves us out of !   All PRAISE and HONOR and GLORY to HIS NAME! HALLELUYAH !

 

*"specifically" here meaning in this specific way , actually before and after being saved.  The blessings (righteousness, peace and joy, freedom from so much, blamelessness and overcoming)  from just being HIS are of course much greater and not specifically from YHWH to one or another believer but over all to all believers.

 

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16 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

YHWH blessed me specifically* before I was saved to see in SCRIPTURE the evil of man triumphs in the physical world,  they all go on partying and shopping and giving in marriage (every day after another,  nothing changing toward good,  no one looking to YHWH (GOD) ) .....  

and to read the end of the book (REVELATION) all the way through along with the rest of all SCRIPTURE (OT AND NT)...

and see the astonishing wickednesses of society everywhere,  growing worse in our lifetimes, not better,  with the wicked being rewarded and the righteous being punished (just as JESUS was, and HE IS PERFECT ! without sin) ....

YHWH'S SALVATION becomes so much more full and rich and amazing when we see from HIS WORD what HE saves us out of !   All PRAISE and HONOR and GLORY to HIS NAME! HALLELUYAH !

 

*"specifically" here meaning in this specific way , actually before and after being saved.  The blessings (righteousness, peace and joy, freedom from so much, blamelessness and overcoming)  from just being HIS are of course much greater and not specifically from YHWH to one or another believer but over all to all believers.

 

The wicked do seem to prosper - and it does hurt when you take pains to do right.  I identify with the book of Habakuk.  I don't know where God is going to lead - but I have sensed Him very close.  Maybe He is getting ready to act.  

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4 minutes ago, Yowm said:

OK, see if this supplements your situation...

2 Corinthians 4:16-17 KJV
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. [17] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

 

That's a good verse - thank you.  The only thing is that the affliction caused by these two evil people was not light.  It reminds me of when they had all the boy babies slain, trying to kill Christ.  "...Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing to be comforted because they are no more..."   I would put the level of suffering along these lines - there is no comfort.  I've read many sermons on it through the years, and nothing I've read has ever helped for any length of time.  In fact, while we struggle with money and health pressures, after working hard and getting nothing free, the one evil individual got every government freebie you can imagine, even free windows in her entire house, and then retired with a nice fat government pension and free health care.  She screwed her own sister out of her house and got her son in there, and they got multiple government grants and assistance, and own a house on an acre of land.  She fools everyone with a sickeningly sweet nice-to-your-face-stab-in-the-back  - and she fools a lot of people.   I did warn a few people about her - but the last I heard, she's still hoodwinking people, and now with her government pension is flitting all over on various vacations - courtesy of all of us while she left a lot of carnage in her wake.  So it's hard to see that God knows what she is and doesn't remove her before she damages more people, or doesn't seem to hold her accountable for the evil she did already.  I have seen this with a lot of evildoers - so Psalm 73 does fit, but how can you sustain these feelings that God will repay evildoers time after time and they prosper?

The other Christian evildoer is a family that owns a church.  They are very very corrupt - I was warned about them, but my husband wanted to go to their church.  Sure enough, the warning was true, but not before they hurt people - very badly.

I have seen some wonderful answered prayers - one recently, that was extremely imperative.  It strengthened my faith.  But when I look in my prayer journal, I have repeated unanswered prayers. I would love to finally be able to check an "Answered" box.  When you see people so vile that they break the 10 commandments, and others who are so jealous of you that they try to deliberately harm you, then you look to God and say - isn't it time God?

So, I don't have the answers, but am still seeking.  

 

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When in doubt, do what Jesus did.

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20 hours ago, cherubim said:

I think it comes down to what is our responsibility vs God's.  I don't think it's a cut and dry issue.  Oversimplifying the issue has led to positive harm, since people may be lulled into thinking they never have to take action.  I see that no one really has more insight into this than all the sermons I've read over the years.  It's something I struggle with. All the verses are plain enough, but living it out doesn't seem like it's even for everyone.  I've seen cases where judgment didn't fall on an evil person until someone took action, and other cases where judgment came without anyone acting.   I don't know - I think it's a hard concept.  I've seen people do horrible things and seemingly walk away scot free. In at least 2 cases it was professing believers. What they did was really bad. It reminds me of the verse in Revelations about the saints asking God how long it would be before He avenged their blood.

If we are talking of spousal or child abuse, I don't understand why you think the victim can't call the police and have the wrong doer arrested or a getting a child away from an abusive parent. Forgiveness does not mean that you can't seek help from authorities i.e. police, or the courts when needed or if necessary. NOR does it mean that an abused spouse can't seek a separation or a divorce if necessary. The victim does not have to stay with the abuser or be friends. Or even trust the abuser. Not at all.

Scripture is not saying that at all. Nor is it saying that a wrong doer escapes responsibility such as jail time for abuse or other crimes. You are misunderstanding this completely. Forgiveness means that in your heart and mind, you will not harbor anger, bitterness or resentment towards the wrong doer or remain angry and upset. Or continue to hold the wrong doing against them in your heart. If you are constantly recalling the person in your heart and becoming angry and sullen and wish the person ill will in your heart every time you think of them, you haven't forgiven the person. Forgiveness is for the victims benefit.

When Jesus said to turn the other cheek, he was NOT referring to you being physically punched in the face and being repeatedly physically punched and to just stand there and except it. NOT at all. Turning the other cheek refers to insults such as someone you don't know personally out in public calling you a name or making rude remarks or other unpleasantries that are intended to be taken as an insult.


 

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12 minutes ago, giggling appy said:

If we are talking of spousal or child abuse, I don't understand why you think the victim can't call the police and have the wrong doer arrested or a getting a child away from an abusive parent. Forgiveness does not mean that you can't seek help from authorities i.e. police, or the courts when needed or if necessary. NOR does it mean that an abused spouse can't seek a separation or a divorce if necessary. The victim does not have to stay with the abuser or be friends. Or even trust the abuser. Not at all.

Scripture is not saying that at all. Nor is it saying that a wrong doer escapes responsibility such as jail time for abuse or other crimes. You are misunderstanding this completely. Forgiveness means that in your heart and mind, you will not harbor anger, bitterness or resentment towards the wrong doer or remain angry and upset. Or continue to hold the wrong doing against them in your heart. If you are constantly recalling the person in your heart and becoming angry and sullen and wish the person ill will in your heart every time you think of them, you haven't forgiven the person. Forgiveness is for the victims benefit.

When Jesus said to turn the other cheek, he was NOT referring to you being physically punched in the face and being repeatedly physically punched and to just stand there and except it. NOT at all. Turning the other cheek refers to insults such as someone you don't know personally out in public calling you a name or making rude remarks or other unpleasantries that are intended to be taken as an insult.

 


"You are misunderstanding this completely."  That's a leap of faith:)   I understand it fully.  Sometimes clear action can't be taken, yet some can in the situations you described, and action should be taken. 

My original post was that I struggled with the imprecatory psalms vs Christ's call to forgive, because they are polarities, and I wondered if anyone else struggled with this.  I can't imagine that I'm the only one who struggles with this.  For instance, I could "pray for enemies" by wishing them blessings, or I could "pray for enemies that God takes them out of circulation so they can't hurt anyone else."

I'm unsure which way God intends for us to pray - but I imagine that's something He'll reveal to me as He determines since it's something I've struggled with.  There have been many times when I've lamented like Habakuk, seeing the wicked prosper, and times I've prayed Psalm 73.  There were times I prayed the 35th Psalm.

 

 

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On 3/25/2017 at 10:19 AM, cherubim said:

I have a question that I have struggled with for a long time. In The Old Testament psalms, David prayed for judgment on his enemies - the "Imprecatory Psalms" - then Christ said to "love your enemies, pray for those who use and persecute you." When someone does something despicable to you - how are you supposed to know whether to pray for God's judgment on them, or pray *for* them? I'm a long time Christian and this still stumps me.

I have seen people get away with atrocities, and do not appear to have gotten repaid for the evil they did.  Even when Christ said to pray for your enemies, he didn't say specifically *what* to pray.

Has anyone else stumbled with this?  

~

On 3/27/2017 at 6:18 AM, Churchmouse said:

To love someone who you feel has wronged you, you must first get over yourself, which we do be both forgiving them for what they did and forgiving us, for being taken advantage of. People talk all day long about forgiving the other persn and then continue to carry around the anger within ourselves for being, quote/unquote stupid. If you don't forgive yourself you will be constantly on guard and carry this baggage with you through life and treat others as a potential manipulator instead of a potential friend. That doesn't work out, since people will sense your reluctance and wonder why.

It is beneficial to be cautious, but also to be measured in ones interactions with others. Loving them does not mean being a pawn or a mark. It is to show them kindness and consideration for who they are and their situation, in order for them to realize they are being acknowledged positively by you.

~

On 3/27/2017 at 8:38 AM, Churchmouse said:

i think If i hear the term unsure much more in this I will pull my hair out.

:emot-heartbeat:

Dear Hairless

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. Romans 12:19 (New International Version)

For Sure I See Two Things

“But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

“If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much! And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, why should you get credit? Even sinners will lend to other sinners for a full return.

“Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked. You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. Luke 6:27-36

To Consider Before De-Thatching Ones Glory

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Revelation 6:9-11 (English Standard Version)

~

Praying~!

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26 (New American Standard Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughters Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

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Thank you - I love that verse in Revelations.  I used to listen to it on CD all the time.  

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16 minutes ago, cherubim said:

Thank you - I love that verse in Revelations.  I used to listen to it on CD all the time.  

:emot-heartbeat:

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