One Lord, one faith, one baptism

[Willa]

Our unity lies in our all being born again of the Spirit; all true believers are thus sealed by the Holy Spirit as the guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.   Eph. 1:13  

As people in any family have disagreements, so do we.  But they should not destroy the abiding love we have for each other.  Were we to be attacked, we would come together as one and defend each other because we love each other in Christ.  The thing we hold in common is our love for God and for His word recorded the Bible.  We are part of Christ's body, and the hand should not say to the foot, I have no need of you.  We all need each other, and we recognize that Christ loves each of us so much that He died for us.  

[Jeff2]

the word baptize mean “to dip or immerse,” but are you talking about the same thing? 

The Classical Greek bapto means to tinge, dye, dip, immerse. baptidzo, the word in the New Testament, means to cleanse of purify by washing, or in the case of the New Testament, a ceremonial washing; baptism. While the word can include immerse as a meaning, the context determines what it means.  It's meaning is ceremonial cleansing. It either is translated "immerse' or "ceremonial cleaning," and cannot be both just by the alternate definition. No real translation of the Bible convolutes the action with the mode of cleansing. 

For an example: Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized every one of you ..."

Your argument: Always immerse.

"Repent and be immersed every one of you.." immersed? into what? The term has no water in it!

Or, as the translators rightly stated, "Repent and be baptized..." Christian ceremonial washing. The term has a meaning in its context, it cannot include anything and everything you want to make it mean.

Since the cleansing  (baptidzo, baptisma,) is the idea of washing/cleansing, it does not dictate how that cleaning is performed.

 

[Jeff2]

Immersion was definitely the first century biblical  practice and the method of choice. 

So, does your Church baptize people publically fully naked? The Early Church you appeal to did. they also baptized infants.

[Jeff2]

The first century Didache specified running water such as a river, or a pool if there was no access to a river.  Pouring water over a person was permissible only where there was no access to fresh running water or pools which would be stagnant.

Wrong! The Didache states a preferred place for ceremonial cleansing. Note that the only mode the Didache states of this cleansing is pouring. No other mode is in the instructions.

[Jeff2]

In contrast to the verb baptízō, to dip, immerse, is the verb rhantízō (G4472), to sprinkle, which must not be taken as equivalent to baptízō.  

So, you disagree with God and side with the heathen Classical Greek meaning?

You don't accept that the symbol reflects the action? That God defines what He means by baptism by a display of actions involved in that action?

We know that God speaks of the Baptism of the Spirit. Though there is not an instance in all of Scripture where anyone was immersed in the Spirit. The Spirit is represented as:

Descending, John 1:32

Pouring, Acts 2:17

Shedding forth, Acts 2:33

Falling, Acts 11:15

Coming upon, Acts 1:8

Breathed upon them, John 20:22

The baptism of the Spirit is only represented by an action of coming upon, being poured out on the believer. God said this was the action involved is baptism. There is no example of a believer being placed into or under the Spirit in an immersion.

As a note as to the word baptidzo ALWAYS meaning to dip or immerse, how do we explain that the Old Testament Hebrew always instructed sprinkling and pouring in ceremonial washing, but when the Septuagint was written in Greek, they use baptidzo to replace those Hebrew words “Rahats” and “Tabal,” which means washing or purification, and never immerse or dip? The Greeks had no term for ceremonial washing. So, the word baptidzo in the Bible, as translated from the Greek, means what God says it means, not what the heathen Greek means.  

Edited March 29, 2017 by Jeff2

[Willa]

I didn't want to bore you with the whole thing.  The Bible was not written in classical Greek but the trade language, Koine Greek.  So don't use Thayer's.  Different words were used for different kinds of cleansing.  I am still leaving a lot out.

 

(I) Washing or ablution was frequently by immersion, indicated by either baptízō or níptō (G3538), to wash. In Mar 7:3, the phrase "wash their hands" is the translation of níptō (G3538), to wash part of the body such as the hands. In Mar 7:4 the verb wash in "except they wash" is baptízomai, to immerse. This indicates that the washing of the hands was done by immersing them in collected water. See Luk 11:38which refers to washing one's hands before the meal, with the use of baptízomai, to have the hands baptized. In the Sept.: 2Ki 5:13-14 we have loúō(G3068), to bathe and baptízomai. See also Lev 11:25, Lev 11:28, Lev 11:40, where plúnō (G4150), to wash clothes by dipping, and loúō (G3068), to bathe are used. In Num 19:18-19, báphō, to dip, and plúnō, to wash by dipping are used.

 

(II) To baptize or immerse in or wash with water in token of purification from sin and spiritual pollution (Mat 3:6, Mat 3:11; Mar 1:4-5, Mar 1:8-9; Luk 3:7, Luk 3:12, Luk 3:16, Luk 3:21; Luk 7:30; Joh 1:25, Joh 1:28; Joh 3:22-23, Joh 3:26; Joh 4:1-2; Joh 10:40; Act 2:38, Act 2:41; Act 8:12-13, Act 8:36, Act 8:38; Act 9:18; Act 10:47; Act 16:15, Act 16:33; Act 18:8; Act 22:16; 1Co 1:14, 1Co 1:16-17). In Mar 6:14, "John the baptizing one [ho baptízōn]" (a.t.). In Luke's writings with a dat. of the instrument or material employed, húdati, the dat. of húdōr(G5204), water, means with water (Luk 3:16; Act 1:5; Act 11:16). Elsewhere, however, the prep. en (G1722), in, is used, en húdati, in water (Mat 3:11; Mar 1:8; Joh 1:26, Joh 1:31, Joh 1:33 (cf. "in the Jordan" [a.t. {Mat 3:6}]). In Mar 1:9, eis (G1519), into, "into the Jordan" (a.t.).

 

(III) The adjuncts mark the object and effect of baptism: especially eis (G1519), into, unto, with the acc., to baptize or to be baptized into anything means into the belief, profession or observance of anything (Mat 3:11, "unto repentance"; Act 2:38, "unto remission of sins" [a.t.]; Act 19:3, "Unto John's baptism," meaning the repentance unto which John baptized or the baptism related to John's preaching; Rom 6:3, "unto death" [a.t.] means that those who are baptized do so in relation to Jesus Christ's bearing their sins through His sacrifice and atonement on the cross; 1Co 12:13, "unto one body" [a.t.] that we may become parts of the body of Christ and parts of each other). With eis followed by the acc. of person, it means to baptize or be baptized into a profession of faith or into anyone, in sincere obedience to him. Also in 1Co 10:2, "unto Moses"; Gal 3:27, "unto Christ" (a.t.); also "into the name of someone"(a.t.) means to be identified with what the name of that one stands for (Mat 28:19; Act 8:16; Act 19:5; 1Co 1:13, 1Co 1:15). The same sense is understood when the prep. epí (G1909), upon, or en(G1722), in, followed by the dat., onómati (G3686), upon the name of, is used (Act 2:38, epí; Act 10:48, en). With hupér (G5228), on behalf of or for (1Co 15:29, those being "baptized for [or on account of] the dead," i.e., on a belief of the resurrection of the dead).

 

(VI) In contrast to the verb baptízō, to dip, immerse, is the verb rhantízō (G4472), to sprinkle, which must not be taken as equivalent to baptízō. Rhantízō is used in Mar 7:4 in the WH instead of baptísōntai. Baptísōntai, however, of the TR and the UBS texts, is to be preferred in agreement with baptismoús (pl. [G909]) occurring in the same verse referring to the ceremonial washings of utensils. Baptismós, the ceremonial washing, should never be confused with báptisma which is a distinct practice related to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptismós as mere cleansing of instruments was equated with rhantismós (G4473), sprinkling (found only in Heb 12:24; 1Pe 1:2), because this word was used to indicate the cleansing in symbolism done by the priest of the OT. Such ceremonial cleansing symbolized by sprinkling (Heb 9:19, Heb 9:21; Heb 10:22; Heb 12:24; 1Pe 1:2) had no permanent value nor did it actually cleanse the consciences of individual people. The verb rhantízō, to sprinkle, is found in Heb 9:13 where the contrast between the sprinkling is symbolic of the cleansing of the flesh. However, in Heb 9:14, the blood of Jesus Christ will katharieí (the same as katharísei), cleanse (from the verb katharízō [G2511], purify or cleanse) the conscience of man or his inner being. The high priest never baptized anyone in the way that Christian believers are baptized. He merely sprinkled the blood of animals. Therefore, the sprinkling has nothing to do with baptism but simply with ceremonial cleansing (Heb 9:21). Since, according to Heb 9:22, there can be no remission of sins without the "shedding of blood," Jesus Christ did indeed shed His blood (i.e., lay His life down as a sacrifice for sin). Thus it is not through some magical sprinkling of that blood upon our bodies or souls that we are saved, but when through faith we have our hearts "sprinkled" (the application of the benefits of Christ's death) from an evil conscience and our bodies washed (lelouménoi, the perf. pass. part. of loúō [G3068], to bathe) with clean water (Heb 10:22). The verb loúō, bathe, must be definitely differentiated from the verb níptō(G3538), to wash part of the body, usually feet, hands, or face, which can be used syn. with baptízō, as the verb of baptismós, ceremonial ablution (Luk 11:38), but never equivalent to the NT technical term of baptízō. The two great cleansing ceremonies of the OT, sprinkling and washing, typified the true work of salvation in Jesus Christ. The former perhaps signifying forgiveness (the cleansing of sin's guilt) and the latter probably betokening regeneration (the washing away of sin's defilement). Because believers have received the antitypical reality of these ceremonies in Christ, the writer can say that we have indeed had our consciences sprinkled and our bodies washed. 

 

The Didache rules out the baptism of infants;  Those who did so were in error, as were those who baptized for the dead, and those who waited till near death to be baptized to be sure all their sins were forgiven.  Just because people did these thing does not make it right.  People lied and killed but it wasn't right. 

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water;

7:2 but if thou hast not running water, baptize in some other water, and if thou canst not baptize in cold, in warm water;

7:3 but if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

7:4 But before the baptism, let him who baptizeth and him who is baptized fast previously, and any others who may be able.  And thou shalt command him who is baptized to fast one or two days before.

[Willa]

Sorry, claims to the contrary have no scriptural foundation or foundation in Greek, or foundation in the practice of the first century church.  Baptize means to submerge.  We will have to agree to disagree.  I will respond no further on the subject of baptism.