Why I am a Post-Millennialist

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better—all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding—with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return.

 

Oh Dear, I SPECIFICALLY stated that I do NOT beleive this, I repeated my rejection of the ususal post-millennial claim that it is based upon this earth which will get better and better. It's going to be difficult for us to dialogue missmuffet, if you choose to misrepresent me. Basically, up until a century or so ago, the Post-millennial view existed in two forms, firstly the heavenly reign view (my view), and then secondly the earth getting better and better then resulting in an earthly reign view (not my view but the usually post-millennial view today). The spiritual view is often now called A-Millennial view, but I reject that term, as it implies no-Millenniam at all, and is a deceptive term as the A-Mill view does promote the Millennial reign of Christ, but its now, in heaven, not on this earth.

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I reject that interpretation.

 

Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better—all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding—with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2 Timothy 3:1-7, Paul describes the last days as “terrible times.”

Those who hold to postmillennialism use a non-literal method of interpreting unfulfilled prophecy, assigning their own meanings to words. The problem with this is that when someone starts assigning meanings to words other than their normal meaning, a person can decide that a word, phrase, or sentence means anything he wants it to mean. All objectivity concerning the meaning of words is lost. When words lose their meaning, communication ceases. However, this is not how God has intended for language and communication to be. God communicates to us through His written word, with objective meanings to words, so that ideas and thoughts can be communicated.

A normal, literal interpretation of Scripture rejects postmillennialism and holds to a normal interpretation of all Scripture, including unfulfilled prophecy. We have hundreds of examples in Scripture of prophecies being fulfilled. Take, for example, the prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Those prophecies were fulfilled literally. Consider the virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Consider His death for our sins (Isaiah 53:4-9; 1 Peter 2:24). These prophecies were fulfilled literally, and that is reason enough to assume that God will continue in the future to literally fulfill His Word. Postmillennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.

https://www.gotquestions.org/postmillennialism.html

 

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

millennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.

 

This is a completely inaccurate misrepresentation of my position missmuffet, I never said this and it is a complete misrepresentation of my own position. Christ founded the Millennial kingdom (in heaven in the intermediate state which is why his subjects are "souls" (Revelation 20:4)). My post-millennial position is spiritual and based in heaven, during the intermediate state, and not upon this earth, physically being brought about by churches doing church activities physically here on earth which brings about the kingdom. Please do understand that not all post-millenialists believe exactly the very same thing, just as not all Pentecostals support Benny Hinn and other TV preachers, many do, but not all, and not all dispensationalists are old-time hard-core C.I. Schofieldites, some today are more moderate progressive dispensationalists. I hope that this is helpful MissMuffet.

[Limey_Bob]

12 hours ago, Willa said:

 Rev 5:10  NKJV   And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

God seems to say something different from what you are saying.  

Hello Willa, you have misrepresented me, you (like others) are obviously assuming things about me which I have not said and do not believe. It does seem rather unkind that on my very first day of posting, I am misrepresented and then told that I am opposed to God, all this being based upon people not even taking the trouble to understand me and my position by reading my post. Now as regard to Revelation 5:10, I do believe that the saints of God will most certainly rule upon this earth, together with Christ, but this verse is talking about the ETERNAL STATE, and not the millennial reign of Christ, which as I stated is current, it is in heaven (i.e. its spiritual) being over the "souls" of his saints (Revelation 20:4), this word souls means disincarnate spirits, in the intermediate state who are ruling now (currently) with Christ. I do not as many post-millennialists claim, believe that the the Millennial reign of Christ is still future, neither do I believe that the church will bring this about by their preaching the gospel and Christenizing the world.

[Limey_Bob]

10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

You did a fine job in explaining  the where's  of each Millennial position but a little short on the what's  of each position .

 I think that where you place the Millennium is dependent  entirely upon what you believe it's ultimate purpose  to be .

Based upon a specific  stated belief in  purpose , can the claim then be made that  one of these positions , " Pre, Post, A " , stands out from the others ?

How so ?

Hello Unfailing Presence, you have raised an excellent point. The three main positions are pre-,  post- and A-  Millennial.

 

1. Pre-Millennial (Christ comes back before the 1,000 year millennial reign). This was one of three pre-Millennial views, called futurism, which was popularised by the Schofield Reference Bible published in 1917, and previously by John Nelson Derby in the 19th century in the United States. Here in Europe, this type of Pre-Millennialis is not so popular in traditional European churches, but in America until recently it was orthodoxy in most fundamentalist groups. However, since 1967, with the revision of the Schofield Reference Bible, the dispensationalism of Derby and Schofield which never took off in Europe as it did in America, has been challenged via a drastic revision, and moderation, and in my opinion a positive reassessment of the Schofield notes by people called Progressive Dispensationalists. Dispensationalism, has five parts to it (see the video "dispensationalism" by Stuart Olyott on the YouTube channel: Christian Comedy Channel): it is summed up by the mnemonic LAZER: 1. Always take the Bible literally.  2. the Church is an afterthought.  3. Seven DispenZations i.e. seven different ways of getting saved according to Derby and Schofield, which I'd regard as heresy.  4. Earthly hope for the Jews, the church goes to heaven in classical dispensationalism, which is very similar to another American group’s teachings; the Jehovah's Witnesses, in dispensationalism, the Jews say upon the earth eternally and the Church goes to heaven, so these two groups are eternally divided in dispensationalism.  5. The Rapture (which rests upon a Pre-millennial futurist presupposition) and divides up the Jews from the church for all time. I was converted in 1985 in a dispensationalism Pentecostal Church, but as I've got older, I have come to see massive and very serious problems with the dispensational system, upon which the entire rapture doctrine, and it's parent doctrine called futurism ( which a literal type of pre-millennialism) rests. To be fair, other Pre-Millennialists, such as the C.H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher, also held to Pre-Millennialism, but a different type of Pre- Millennialism called “historic Pre- Millennialism, which did not regard the “rapture” as a double-barrelled, i.e. a two stage second coming.

 

2. Post-Millennial (Christ comes back after the Millennialism). Until a century or more ago, this position existed in two forums one was literal and physical (i.e. the world gets better and better, there is then a thousand years of peace the millennial reign, and then Christ comes back after this 1,000 years of peace). The other view, which developed into the A-Millennial view was similar but with two differences, the reign was now (during the Church age) and it was also spiritual, in heaven, during what is called the intermediate state for the 2,000 year period between the first and second comings. So now the A-Millennial view, as it is called is basically a spiritual version of the post-millennial position. However, some prefer not to call it A-Millennial, as that term means no millennial reign, and the A-Mill view clearly opposes that, as it (and also I) believe that Christ is reigning right now but in heaven. Also some A-Millennialists claim that Christ's reign is in the hearts of his people, they stress that above his reign NOW, during the intermediate state and in heaven, and so for that reason some people whose position is basically A-Mill, prefer to call themselves (Spiritual) Post-Mill.  So, I'd prefer to call my position a spiritual post-Millennial view, and I am in complete agreement that the claim that the world will get better and better, so much so that 1,000 years of peace will come in, is complete nonsense, the Bible instead prophecies a great falling away, a great apostasy, and so i would agree that the usual (physical) post-Millennial view is wrong, just as I would see a great many serious dangers in the futurist version of Pre-Millialism (which includes a belief in the rapture), a position which is hugely popular within the American Evangelical Church which have either consciously or subconsciously taken certain dispensational beliefs, and then built a theology upon what I would regard as extremely flawed theology.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[Willa]

7 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Hello Willa, you have misrepresented me, you (like others) are obviously assuming things about me which I have not said and do not believe. It does seem rather unkind that on my very first day of posting, I am misrepresented and then told that I am opposed to God, all this being based upon people not even taking the trouble to understand me and my position by reading my post. Now as regard to Revelation 5:10, I do believe that the saints of God will most certainly rule upon this earth, together with Christ, but this verse is talking about the ETERNAL STATE, and not the millennial reign of Christ, which as I stated is current, it is in heaven (i.e. its spiritual) being over the "souls" of his saints (Revelation 20:4), this word souls means disincarnate spirits, in the intermediate state who are ruling now (currently) with Christ. I do not as many post-millennialists claim, believe that the the Millennial reign of Christ is still future, neither do I believe that the church will bring this about by their preaching the gospel and Christenizing the world.

Very sorry to have misunderstood you and misrepresented you.   I still disagree.  I believe that in the Millennium the borders that God promised to the Jews will be fulfilled and that Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years over those who survive the trib.  God's favor will return to the Jews who will receive Christ as their Lord and Savior.  

I believe all of the Bible should be read literally except where it is explained otherwise, such as when Jesus explains the parables to the disciples.  This is why I avoid the subject.   I never said you are opposed to God.  I said God says otherwise about the 24 elders reigning as kings and priests with Christ on earth for 1000 years, since I thought you said that would only be in heaven.  My own beliefs are much more aligned to Miss Muffet's.  Respectfully, you are entitled to your beliefs even though we may disagree. 

Forgive me if I still misunderstand.  The posts become very confusing to me.  God's word is much clearer than most posts.  Your view seems similar to a lady from Australia who often posts here.

Welcome to Worthy, by the way.

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

 

This is a completely inaccurate misrepresentation of my position missmuffet, I never said this and it is a complete misrepresentation of my own position. Christ founded the Millennial kingdom (in heaven in the intermediate state which is why his subjects are "souls" (Revelation 20:4)). My post-millennial position is spiritual and based in heaven, during the intermediate state, and not upon this earth, physically being brought about by churches doing church activities physically here on earth which brings about the kingdom. Please do understand that not all post-millenialists believe exactly the very same thing, just as not all Pentecostals support Benny Hinn and other TV preachers, many do, but not all, and not all dispensationalists are old-time hard-core C.I. Schofieldites, some today are more moderate progressive dispensationalists. I hope that this is helpful MissMuffet.

I stick with my position and the correct Biblical interpretation which is a premillennial view. If a person is reading the Bible literally which God intended a person can not help but take a premillennial view.

[Limey_Bob]

Just now, missmuffet said:

I stick with my position and the correct Biblical interpretation which is a premillennial view. If a person is reading the Bible literally which God intended a person can not help but take a premillennial view.

 

Just now, missmuffet said:

I stick with my position and the correct Biblical interpretation which is a premillennial view. If a person is reading the Bible literally which God intended a person can not help but take a premillennial view.

Of course i respect your right to your beliefs, but please don't misrepresent me and my beliefs. 

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

 

Of course i respect your right to your beliefs, but please don't misrepresent me and my beliefs. 

If it is not Biblical I will be at liberty to say so.

[Limey_Bob]

14 minutes ago, Willa said:

Very sorry to have misunderstood you and misrepresented you.   I still disagree.  I believe that in the Millennium the borders that God promised to the Jews will be fulfilled and that Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years over those who survive the trib.  God's favor will return to the Jews who will receive Christ as their Lord and Savior.  

I believe all of the Bible should be read literally except where it is explained otherwise, such as when Jesus explains the parables to the disciples.  This is why I avoid the subject.   I never said you are opposed to God.  I said God says otherwise about the 24 elders reigning as kings and priests with Christ on earth for 1000 years, since I thought you said that would only be in heaven.  My own beliefs are much more aligned to Miss Muffet's.  Respectfully, you are entitled to your beliefs even though we may disagree. 

Forgive me if I still misunderstand.  The posts become very confusing to me.  God's word is much clearer than most posts.  Your view seems similar to a lady from Australia who often posts here.

Welcome to Worthy, by the way.

You are entitled to believe exactly as you choose, just as I and others also have the right to believe as we do too. However, so much of what you have written, is based upon a dispensational presupposition, in America for a century dispensationalism has been the defacto orthodoxcy, from which people are not allowed to deviate. Look I am certain that I'm not perfect in my theology, I am still learning things myself, but I d urge you to study dispensationalism, as it clearly underlies your form of Pre-Millennialism. I am NOT saying that your beleifs are necessarily wrong, I am asking you to consider why you clearly do accept several of the key points of dispensationalism, which do influence your theology, just as my rejection of dispensationsliam influences my presuppositions.

[simplejeff]

There IS A WAY,  that bypasses all those schools and theories,  everyone of them.

"Follow JESUS"

Like in ACTS, and all through SCRIPTURE ......

LIke in those who lived like they did in ACTS,

the Anabaptists,  quite different from all the schools and theories....

and found

in "The Secret of the Anabaptists"  (free online if still available) .....