Why I am a Post-Millennialist

[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

This dispensation is called "Divine Government," because God Himself along with the Son and holy Spirit will set up a divine government on Earth over all nations forever. This first thousand years of God's reign is called the Millennium (Rev. 20: 1-10).

The Kingdom will be as earthly and literal as any other one that has been on the Earth. It will not be monarchic, democratic, or autocratic, but a theocratic form of government, that is God reigning through Jesus His only begotten Son (2Sam. 7: Ps. 89:35-37; Isa. 2:2-4; 4:2-3;9:6-7; 11:1-15; 16:5; 24:23; 32:1-4; 40:9-10; 42:1-4; 52:7; Jer. 23:5-8).

It will be world wide and will forever "increase" in population and blessings (Isa. 9:6-7; 11:9; Ps. 72:8; 97:9; Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 4:1-3; Zech. 9:10; 14:1-21; Rev. 11;15).

I do understand  an actual " Divine Government "  with Christ , but what differentiates this first 1000 years from the rest of eternity in which Christ rules ?

Is it just a number , or is there more to it's purpose ?

[HAZARD]

7 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

I do understand  an actual " Divine Government "  with Christ , but what differentiates this first 1000 years from the rest of eternity in which Christ rules ?

Is it just a number , or is there more to it's purpose ?

Just briefly as I have to leave, at the end of the millennium Satan will be released for a short time and he will stir up those who have lived during the millennium under sufferance and they will rise up against Christ and will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire. The earth will then be renewed and we will continue on into the eternal future. The eternal future will be the continuation of time after the millennium, when God will be all in all as before the rebellion was started in the universe by Lucifer and Adam. God will have a universe free from any possibility of rebellion in all the eternal future, and govern solely by Himself and the redeemed human beings and the faithful angels (Rev. 21: 1-22:5; 1 Cor. 15:24-28). This administration will be an eternal one.

Man will be restored to his original glory. In the eternal future man will again have dominion over all things through Christ, and will become "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" of all creation (Rom. 8:17-18; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Heb. 2:5-11). All free moral agents who have proved true to God will have part in helping God administer the affairs of the universe forever.

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, simplejeff said:

There IS A WAY,  that bypasses all those schools and theories,  everyone of them.

"Follow JESUS"

Unfortunately absolutely nobody does that, and everyone (myself included) is influenced by some underlying bias / presupposition which then effects his or her beliefs. To tell me to just ... 'follow Jesus,' displays a credulity which is find for a new convert of a few weeks, but after a few years of the Christian walk, such a comment is somewhat naive, and displays a lack of reality about the real world; where people's biases and presuppositions influence them.

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Take a look at Revelation 20:1-7. The thousand years which is repeatedly mentioned. You have to take those words literally and not give them your own meaning.

I do take these words seriously, the 1,000 years is mentioned twice in a heavenly context at Revelation 20 verse 4 and 6, so as 1,000 + 1,000 = 2,000 therefore the reign of Christ together with his dead saints (who are said to be reigning as souls - disincarnate spirits at Revelation 20:4) is in heaven, during what is commonly known as the intermediate state. It is my believe that after 2,000 years (approximately?) Christ will return, so the intermediate state lasts between Christ's ascension and second coming. MissMuffet, you also state that I must take the Bible literally, why? The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic language, such as Christ having a sword coming out of his mouth whilst he sits on a white horse at his second coming (Revelation 19:13). That is not supposed to be taken literally, the horse represents the speed of his judgement on the wicked world, the whiteness represents purity and the sword isn't literal, it is a visual representation of the Bible (word of God). Thank you for your patiently listening to my point of view.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I did post Scripture stating that you are not reading the Bible literally. If I were you I would take a look at the very severe warning that is in the book of Revelation and not taking away or adding to the words that are in that book.

Revelation 22:18-19

A Warning

¹⁸ For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; ¹⁹ and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 MissMuffet this warning has nothing to do with people not taking the Bible literally. You need to find a verse which states:  "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone DOES NOT TAKE these things LITERALLY, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book."    

 

[Limey_Bob]

15 hours ago, worthy said:

Ok, Let me get this straight. You made a post titled Why I am a Post-Millennialist. But when MM said she didn't agree you said You don't believe it.

So which is it, are you a Post-Millennialist Or not??

Define both a Pre-Millennialist as well as a post-Millennialist. There are different types of both! C.H. Spurgeon for instance (a find man and a great preacher from the 19th century) was a pre-Millennialist, but he was a historic Pre-Millennialist who rejected the concept of a pre-trib rapture, so both Spurgeon and people in this forum are both Pre-Millennial, yet both differ widely in their Pre-Millennialism. Likewise there are two types of Post-Millennial belief, I explained this in my first post, spiritual Post-Millennial (often called A-Mill but some who hold this reject the term A-Mill) and a physical literal earthly based Post-Millennial belief where these people believe that the world will get Christianized and get better and better thus the church (not Christ) will institute a Millennium here on earth. I take the spiritual not literal Post-Millennial position. Sometimes in life you need to explain your position, rather than give simple yes no answers, as often people will misunderstand you if you just say yes or no. An example of this is in politics, a communist could ask: "do you support Donald Trump?" when the republican says yes, then then Communist replies: "of so you are a Nazi then!" Do you see how this works? The Communist using the tactic of cultural Marxism, simply labels all non-Marxists as Nazis, if somebody votes for Donald Trump, the obviously that does not make them a Nazi, but to people on the far left, their tactic is to smear all people outside of their group. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same, anyone who is religious but does not fellowship with them is of the devil (according to them)! Sadly the Christian Church is dying rapidly in Europe (where I live), it's literally collapsing in my city and Islam is taking over in leaps and bounds, there are many reasons for this, but one reason is that Christians can't even talk to non-believers or other-believers in my case, the ability to simply dialogue intelligently and drawing on relevant portions of the Bible is beyond most churched people whom I meet. If you can't dialogue, then you can't evangelize and neither can you defend your beliefs in discussion and debate, which is why most Atheists and Muslims make fools out of so many (I did not say all) Christians when they meet them, and the Christian is so completely ignorant of his or her own faith and the basics (Trinity, Christ's two natures, New Covenant etc) that they are in most cases (I did not say all) completely incapable of defending their faith or even of discussing it with a better educated and more knowledgeable Muslim or Atheist.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Limey_Bob

[Limey_Bob]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

Hi Bob,

You keep using the term Pentecostal as if it were only a Oneness belief.  I have to correct this by showing there are many Pentecostal churches that are not Oneness, while some are:

• Apostolic Church
• Assemblies of God
• Association of Vineyard Churches
• Church of God (Cleveland)
• Church of God in Christ
• Church of God of Prophecy
• Elim Pentecostal
• Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
• Hillsong Church
• International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
• International Pentecostal Holiness Church
• Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
• United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI)

 

According to one Oneness Pentecostal site, they list what they see as Oneness establishments/Churches/Universities, which are:

Official Names and Membership (estimates):

Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God (AOHCG)-13,000
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus, Inc. (ALJI)-50,000
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ World Wide, Inc. (Bible Way)-250,000
Church of Our Lord Jesus of the Apostolic Faith (COLJF)-30,000
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW)-1,000,000 reported
Pentecostal Church of Apostolic Faith (PCAF)-25,000
United Church of Jesus Christ (Apostolic) (UCJC-A)-100,000
United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI)-500,000 (1.5 million worldwide)

Other Designations: "Jesus Only" churches; "Apostolic Pentecostals"; The "Oneness Movement"; The "Jesus Name" Movement

Key Publications:

Pentecostal Herald (UPCI)
The Global Witness (UPCI)
The Bible Way News Voice (Bible Way)
The People's Mouthpiece (AOHCG)
The Contender for the Faith (COLJF)
Christian Outlook (PAW)

Educational Institutions:

AOHCG: Berean Christian Bible College-Birmingham, Ala.
PAW: Aenon Bible School-Indianapolis, Ind.
UCJC: Institute of Biblical Studies-Baltimore, Md.
UPCI: Apostolic Bible Institute-St. Paul, Minn.
Apostolic Missionary Institute-Oshawa, Ont.
Christian Life College-Stockton, Calif.
Indiana Bible College-Seymour, Ind.
Texas Bible College-Houston, Texas

 

Over the years I have come to realize that blanket statements are very damaging and just about every time, a lie.  Please be careful with blanket statements as it may hurt someone without you ever knowing it.

Thank you for this, you are of course absolutely right! About a quarter of Pentecostal churches world-wide are Oneness (apostolic), my first church was a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church 1985. I converted for just under a year to the Oneness in 1988-1989, when God delivered me from the heresy of this anti-Trinitarian belief, and gave me a passion for defending the truth of the Trinity.

[Limey_Bob]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Do you have a preterist belief Bob?

Absolutely not, passages such as Revelation 19:13 (the second coming of Christ), as well as just before that the revealing of the beast and false prophet, the mark 666 in the hand or forehead, have not yet been revealed and so are still future. Neither am I a historicist who goes through the book of revelation and applies this verse to Napoleon's birth, the next verse to Napoleon's conquest of Rome, the next verse to some meteor shower in the 1700s etc.

[enoob57]

16 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

You are entitled to believe exactly as you choose, just as I and others also have the right to believe as we do too. However, so much of what you have written, is based upon a dispensational presupposition, in America for a century dispensationalism has been the defacto orthodoxcy, from which people are not allowed to deviate. Look I am certain that I'm not perfect in my theology, I am still learning things myself, but I d urge you to study dispensationalism, as it clearly underlies your form of Pre-Millennialism. I am NOT saying that your beleifs are necessarily wrong, I am asking you to consider why you clearly do accept several of the key points of dispensationalism, which do influence your theology, just as my rejection of dispensationsliam influences my presuppositions.

Any scholarship can clearly see that God has in different times dealt with people in different ways... and they termed this dispensations. It is so obvious to the literal hermeneutical sense in Scripture that departure from this reason is to build on a foundation other than Scripture's design.... that is why it is orthodox in the plain sense that it is given! If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense is spelled out in Scripture thus

John 3:12 (KJV)

[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Just as God's Word forms the creation and the constant simplicity of law to maintain balance and order so also His Word is to be understood as it is written... hermeneutics 101!
Love, Steven

[Limey_Bob]

12 hours ago, HAZARD said:

This dispensation is called "Divine Government," because God Himself along with the Son and holy Spirit will set up a divine government on Earth over all nations forever. This first thousand years of God's reign is called the Millennium (Rev. 20: 1-10).

The Kingdom will be as earthly and literal as any other one that has been on the Earth. It will not be monarchic, democratic, or autocratic, but a theocratic form of government, that is God reigning through Jesus His only begotten Son (2Sam. 7: Ps. 89:35-37; Isa. 2:2-4; 4:2-3;9:6-7; 11:1-15; 16:5; 24:23; 32:1-4; 40:9-10; 42:1-4; 52:7; Jer. 23:5-8).

It will be world wide and will forever "increase" in population and blessings (Isa. 9:6-7; 11:9; Ps. 72:8; 97:9; Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 4:1-3; Zech. 9:10; 14:1-21; Rev. 11;15).

Christ's kingdom was set up at his ascension see Colossians 1:13: "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves." The use of the word "kingdom" moderated by a verb in the present tense, proves that the Kingdom of God, over which Christ was ruling was already extant when Paul wrote this epistle. If Christ's Kingdom were some still future event, which had not then been set up, then Paul would have written Colossians 1:13 in the future tense: " .... and HE WILL Establish his kingdom of the Son he loves."   This kingdom is currently in heaven, where Christ (as King) is ruling over "souls" that is dis-incarnate spirits during the intermediate state between Christ's ascension and second coming (Revelation 20:4). Please I beg you, do not claim that Christ's Kingdom has not been set up and is some still future event. Christ rules now. Christ has ruled as King since his ascension.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Limey_Bob