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Oneness claims that John 14:10 states that Jesus is God the Father


Limey_Bob

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9 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Christ has two minds and two wills according to both the Bible and alkso to the ancient creeds, but Yahweh God (who is eternally, personally and distinctly) Father, Son and Holy Spirit has only one mind and one will (shared by Father, Son and Holy Spirit), if he did not, then he'd be more than one single God. The reconcilition is easy, Christ possesses two natures, he is fully God and fully man, and as such that is how Christ possesses two minds and two wills in classical Trinitarian theology. I am not of course referring to what is taught as the Trinity in so many churches local to me in the UK, where church leaders seem to just "make it all up on the spur of the moment" as they go along.

 

So what was it called before trinity was created in the NT ?   

If so, In the OT then there were just two ? - God and the Holy Ghost 

or was it oneness ?

 

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11 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

So what was it called before trinity was created in the NT ?   

If so, In the OT then there were just two ? - God and the Holy Ghost 

or was it oneness ?

 

The Trinity developed from the 3rd to the 5th century, in response to heresies which arose within the Christian church at that time. The Son of God is mentioned in the Old Testament too, see Proverbs 30:4 and Psalm 2:8-10.

Edited by Limey_Bob
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2 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

The Trinity developed from the 3rd to the 5th century, in response to heresies which arose within the Christian church at that time. The Son of God is mentioned in the Old Testament too, see Proverbs 30:4 and Psalm 2:8-10.

So do you believe Jesus was God's first creation ?  and the holy spirit is just God's spirit.

If Jesus is from God, why can you not believe Jesus is a lessor God. A mighty God but not the Almighty God.

The Father is greater than the son.

Hebrews 1:8-9
8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 5:7
 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Jesus has a God to pray to, here he wanted him to save him from death - did Jesus wanted to save the body or was something else going to die ?    God can't die.  So Jesus must not have been the God Almighty

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3 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

So do you believe Jesus was God's first creation ?  and the holy spirit is just God's spirit.

If Jesus is from God, why can you not believe Jesus is a lessor God. A mighty God but not the Almighty God.

The Father is greater than the son.

Hebrews 1:8-9
8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 5:7
 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Jesus has a God to pray to, here he wanted him to save him from death - did Jesus wanted to save the body or was something else going to die ?    God can't die.  So Jesus must not have been the God Almighty

In Trinitarian theology the Son of God possesses two natures being fully God and fully man. He possesses the attributes of both (unmixed), so he is both uncreated (as God) and created (in his humanity), eternal and immutable (as God), but mortal and mutable (as man). 

 

As for Jesus being God's first created being, that's a Jehovah's Witness concept.

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15 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

So do you believe Jesus was God's first creation ?  and the holy spirit is just God's spirit.

If Jesus is from God, why can you not believe Jesus is a lessor God. A mighty God but not the Almighty God.

The Father is greater than the son.

Hebrews 1:8-9 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him,
8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 5:7
 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Jesus has a God to pray to, here he wanted him to save him from death - did Jesus wanted to save the body or was something else going to die ?    God can't die.  So Jesus must not have been the God AlmightyJ

Jesus - as God the Son - "emptied himself" to become a man.

Phil 2 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him,

 

Jesus always had access to His God power - as Satan well knew in Matthew 4. Satan tempts Jesus to eat - after 40 days of starving. It is not a sin to eat after 40 days of fasting. But Satan was not just presenting Jesus with a sandwich - rather no-sandwich. Satan challenges Jesus to access His infinite God power and turn stone into bread. In fact Satan argues that this would prove that Jesus was in fact God the Son  -- since only infinite God could do such a thing. Jesus refuses saying that He would only do what His Father commanded and would not use His own God power to satisfy Satan's request or to provide for his own life. But would rely on "every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God" just as man must do. Just as our "example" must do.

 

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On 4/12/2017 at 10:27 PM, Bible_Gazer said:

So what was it called before trinity was created in the NT ?   

If so, In the OT then there were just two ? - God and the Holy Ghost 

or was it oneness ?

 

Bible Gazer, I have had several audio debates with both Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals, you can listen to them in the Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostal playlists of my YouTube channel which is titled: Christian Comedy Channel. I'd value your take on my 3 hour discussion with several Jehovah's Witnesses on chapter 3 of the Really Teach book.

Edited by Limey_Bob
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8 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Jesus - as God the Son - "emptied himself" to become a man.

Phil 2 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him,

 

Jesus always had access to His God power - as Satan well knew in Matthew 4. Satan tempts Jesus to eat - after 40 days of starving. It is not a sin to eat after 40 days of fasting. But Satan was not just presenting Jesus with a sandwich - rather no-sandwich. Satan challenges Jesus to access His infinite God power and turn stone into bread. In fact Satan argues that this would prove that Jesus was in fact God the Son  -- since only infinite God could do such a thing. Jesus refuses saying that He would only do what His Father commanded and would not use His own God power to satisfy Satan's request or to provide for his own life. But would rely on "every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God" just as man must do. Just as our "example" must do.

 

You got it backward -- Jesus - The Son of God -  "emptied himself" to become a man.

Hebrews 10:5
 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus did leave his heavenly body to go into his as he said before he entered his earthly body, that God prepared for him.

Here is the thoughts - God cannot die, but Jesus did, it was more than just the body that died.  Jesus did not come to save our body, what is the part of man that goes to heaven when he is saved, its the same part of Jesus when he died.

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30 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

You got it backward -- Jesus - The Son of God -  "emptied himself" to become a man.

Hebrews 10:5
 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus did leave his heavenly body to go into his as he said before he entered his earthly body, that God prepared for him.

Here is the thoughts - God cannot die, but Jesus did, it was more than just the body that died.  Jesus did not come to save our body, what is the part of man that goes to heaven when he is saved, its the same part of Jesus when he died.

You say that "God cannot die but Jesus did" right after admitting to the Phil 2 text where Jesus is equal with God the Father and "emptied himself" being made into the "form of man" -- as if "in the form of man he could not die if He were God" ... what then is the point of "emptied Himself" if not to show that He was no longer going to function as pure "God" but would rather be taking on the weakness of human flesh that could get hungry, tired and could be killed? As for His God nature while in the tomb - I am not sure that this is what died. I think it was His human nature that died. Jesus said He had the power to "raise Himself" from the dead. No human can do that.

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41 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

Bible Gazer, I have had several audio debates with both Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals, you can listen to them in the Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostal playlists of my YouTube channel which is titled: Christian Comedy Channel. I'd value your take on my 3 hour discussion with several Jehovah's Witnesses on chapter 3 of the Really Teach book.

Ok so here is "my best" with Jehovah's Witnesses. They will freely admit from John 1 and Colossians one that the Son of God - Jesus ... is the one that made all things in creation. (At the direction of God the Father of course). But then in Revelation 14:7 "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth" - and Revelation 21 "Worship God alone".

Irrefutable.

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28 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Ok so here is "my best" with Jehovah's Witnesses. They will freely admit from John 1 and Colossians one that the Son of God - Jesus ... is the one that made all things in creation. (At the direction of God the Father of course). But then in Revelation 14:7 "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth" - and Revelation 21 "Worship God alone".

Irrefutable.

Amen, excellent post and comment.

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