In heaven during 1,000 year reign?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Keras said:

Marcus says the Elect will be taken up to heaven before the Great Tribulation.

This is just blatantly wrong; I say NO such thing.  (Can keras get anything right?)

Pre-Wrath places the Rapture to Heaven coincidental to the sixth Seal
- AFTER the midpoint Abomination
- and AFTER the shortened Great Tribulation

But BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which allows the Scroll to be opened and the Trumpet announcements of God's desolations, His Wrath - decreed so long ago - go forth.
(and the first Trumpet supplies much of the Wrath of God which goes forth on the second half of the Day of the Lord.)

[Fidei Defensor]

10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

I see only two groups of people

The over comers those with no worry of the 2nd death and those who although changed can still die in the lake of fire.

I Corinthians 15:52 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

 

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

There are definitely two groups: Those written in Lamb's Book of Life and those who are not. I am not disputing that. My list of four groups is believers, different groups of Christians who will go through different experiences in the Last Days.

[n2thelight]

13 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

There are definitely two groups: Those written in Lamb's Book of Life and those who are not. I am not disputing that. My list of four groups is believers, different groups of Christians who will go through different experiences in the Last Days.

One will either receive the seal of God,or take the mark

Those are the only options

[Keras]

23 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

This is just blatantly wrong; I say NO such thing.  (Can keras get anything right?)

Pre-Wrath places the Rapture to Heaven coincidental to the sixth Seal
- AFTER the midpoint Abomination
- and AFTER the shortened Great Tribulation

But BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which allows the Scroll to be opened and the Trumpet announcements of God's desolations, His Wrath - decreed so long ago - go forth.
(and the first Trumpet supplies much of the Wrath of God which goes forth on the second half of the Day of the Lord.)

OK, I'm sorry Marcus. I did know you were pre-wrath rapture, but forgot that you [wrongly] place the wrath of the Lord at Jesus' Return.

Proved by Revelation 15:1 ....the 7 Plagues are the last of all God's punishments and with them, His wrath is completed.

How and why you shuffle the Sixth Seal and expect to be taken to heaven, as Jesus is Returning to earth, is purely your own fanciful belief.

[Retrobyter]

On 5/3/2017 at 8:41 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

     Matthew, Mark and Luke were written decades after the conversations they record in a language which Jesus probably did not speak (there is no evidence He spoke Greek).  So whatever understanding they had when Jesus spoke to them is conveyed with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, and was further tempered by the fact that a considerable amount of time had passed until the first book of the Gospel was written, which is important in this case.

Shalom, Marcus.

This is probably better placed within the Doctrine forum and I should probably start a new thread, but I couldn't help reflecting on what you said in this paragraph:

Some claim that Yeshua` (Jesus) quoted some passages from the Septuagint. And, you just claimed that "there's no evidence that He spoke Greek," and I tend to agree with you. So, how could both be true? If Yeshua` didn't speak Greek, why would He bother quoting from a translation of the Tanakh (the OT) into the Greek language? Furthermore, HOW could Yeshua` have quoted from a Greek translation of the Tanakh if He didn't speak Greek? How, apart from God's powers within Him as the Son of God, do these two statements contradict each other? And, if so, then is one correct while the other is incorrect? And, how do we tell which is which? OR could BOTH statements be incorrect? If Yeshua` already KNEW the Tanakh in Hebrew while speaking Aramaic (a dialect of Hebrew spoken by those who returned from Persia through Syria [Aram]), why wouldn't He just quote from the Hebrew Tanakh DIRECTLY?

Just some thoughts to ponder. I really don't have an answer.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Retrobyter
to fix a misspelling and add boldfacing

[Fidei Defensor]

Depends if you are one of the martyrs or not (Revelation 20:4-9). More specifically it says you have to be "beheaded," to be part of one thousand year reign (Revelation 20:4).

[Revelation Man]

On 3/30/2017 at 11:12 AM, bornagain2011 said:

We have some friends who after doing some Bible studies now believe that we will be in heaven with Jesus during the 1,000 year reign and that New Jerusalem is for the Jews not His church. 

I showed them scripture showing that Jesus reigns on earth with us during 1,000 years, but they said Jesus is omnipresent so He is up in heaven with us and ruling down on earth with the Jews that came out of the tribulation alive.

It doesn't sound like anything I've learned from the scriptures.

What are your thoughts?

Rev. 20 says the Beheaded.......and I guess the Jewish peoples who were protected also, will serve with Jesus for 1000 years on Earth. So if that is true, then the Church will be in Heaven, but not with Jesus.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Depends if you are one of the martyrs or not (Revelation 20:4-9). More specifically it says you have to be "beheaded," to be part of one thousand year reign (Revelation 20:4).

 

43 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 20 says the Beheaded.......and I guess the Jewish peoples who were protected also, will serve with Jesus for 1000 years on Earth. So if that is true, then the Church will be in Heaven, but not with Jesus.

Shalom, Fidei Defensor and Revelation Man.

Sorry, but you've both read Revelation 20:1-6 incorrectly. I used to think that it was just those who had been beheaded, but let's look at the verses again:

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

The problem is in understanding the Greek behind the passage. The first sentence of verse 5 is parenthetical to the thoughts in verses 4 and 6. Verse 6 goes with verse 4. Thus, verse 4 is a SUBSET of verse 6. That is, those air-breathers who had been beheaded are SOME of the ones who were called "blessed and holy" and who had part in the first resurrection. And, ALL who participate in the first resurrection are those who "shall be priests of God and of His Messiah and shall reign with Him (the Messiah) a thousand years." Notice that John did NOT say in this passage that they (we) will be "kings" but "priests," that is, "GO-BETWEENS" between God and men. The words "shall reign" is the Greek word "basileusousin" and means "shall rule." While it IS related to "basileia" meaning "kingdom" and "basileus," meaning "king," the word is less particular and is paired with the words "met' autou" meaning "with Him," talking about sharing rulership with Him in a subordinate capacity.

Just as Moses delegated the job of judging Israel to others, so Yeshua` will delegate much of His rulership and judgment to us, reserving only the highly important matters for Himself.

Remember what Paul said about the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-25
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
KJV

Verse 24 is about the SECOND resurrection after the Millennium, at the END of the first 1000 years of His reign.

So, if we claim to belong to the Christ, belong to the Messiah, then we should participate in the resurrection - the FIRST general resurrection - that occurs "at His coming."

[Fidei Defensor]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, Fidei Defensor and Revelation Man.

Sorry, but you've both read Revelation 20:1-6 incorrectly. I used to think that it was just those who had been beheaded, but let's look at the verses again:

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

The problem is in understanding the Greek behind the passage. The first sentence of verse 5 is parenthetical to the thoughts in verses 4 and 6. Verse 6 goes with verse 4. Thus, verse 4 is a SUBSET of verse 6. That is, those air-breathers who had been beheaded are SOME of the ones who were called "blessed and holy" and who had part in the first resurrection. And, ALL who participate in the first resurrection are those who "shall be priests of God and of His Messiah and shall reign with Him (the Messiah) a thousand years." Notice that John did NOT say in this passage that they (we) will be "kings" but "priests," that is, "GO-BETWEENS" between God and men. The words "shall reign" is the Greek word "basileusousin" and means "shall rule." While it IS related to "basileia" meaning "kingdom" and "basileus," meaning "king," the word is less particular and is paired with the words "met' autou" meaning "with Him," talking about sharing rulership with Him in a subordinate capacity.

Just as Moses delegated the job of judging Israel to others, so Yeshua` will delegate much of His rulership and judgment to us, reserving only the highly important matters for Himself.

Remember what Paul said about the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-25
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
KJV

Verse 24 is about the SECOND resurrection after the Millennium, at the END of the first 1000 years of His reign.

So, if we claim to belong to the Christ, belong to the Messiah, then we should participate in the resurrection - the FIRST general resurrection - that occurs "at His coming."

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, Fidei Defensor and Revelation Man.

Sorry, but you've both read Revelation 20:1-6 incorrectly. I used to think that it was just those who had been beheaded, but let's look at the verses again:

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

The problem is in understanding the Greek behind the passage. The first sentence of verse 5 is parenthetical to the thoughts in verses 4 and 6. Verse 6 goes with verse 4. Thus, verse 4 is a SUBSET of verse 6. That is, those air-breathers who had been beheaded are SOME of the ones who were called "blessed and holy" and who had part in the first resurrection. And, ALL who participate in the first resurrection are those who "shall be priests of God and of His Messiah and shall reign with Him (the Messiah) a thousand years." Notice that John did NOT say in this passage that they (we) will be "kings" but "priests," that is, "GO-BETWEENS" between God and men. The words "shall reign" is the Greek word "basileusousin" and means "shall rule." While it IS related to "basileia" meaning "kingdom" and "basileus," meaning "king," the word is less particular and is paired with the words "met' autou" meaning "with Him," talking about sharing rulership with Him in a subordinate capacity.

Just as Moses delegated the job of judging Israel to others, so Yeshua` will delegate much of His rulership and judgment to us, reserving only the highly important matters for Himself.

Remember what Paul said about the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20-25
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
KJV

Verse 24 is about the SECOND resurrection after the Millennium, at the END of the first 1000 years of His reign.

So, if we claim to belong to the Christ, belong to the Messiah, then we should participate in the resurrection - the FIRST general resurrection - that occurs "at His coming."

Ah but general resurrection happens after Revelation 20:4-9, because in following verses the dead rise, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14). The Book of Life is present, so this isn't just unrepentant sinners.

Besides the beheaded ones are the ones in Revelation 2o:4-9, "Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years, This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) ⁶ Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. ⁸ He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. ⁹ And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them." Although I admit the First resurrection clause in verses 5-6 is puzzling, you must take note that the other resurrection later (in the first paragraph) has Lamb's Book of Life present, otherwise it would have said the Wicked rose and were condemned (presumably).

[Revelation Man]

37 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but you've both read Revelation 20:1-6 incorrectly. I used to think that it was just those who had been beheaded, but let's look at the verses again:

 

The Church (Dead and Alive) is Raptured.....(First Resurrection). Then after the Tribulation, those Killed by the Anti-Christ who were MARTYRS/Beheaded  (These are the Martyrs under the Alter who are told to WAIT) will be Raised from the dead after the Anti-Christ has been Killed......(They are ALSO the First Resurrection) they will live and rein with Christ Jesus for the 1000 years on Earth. 

Then 1000 years later Satan is loosed, some men follow him, and God destroys them with Fire. The BRIDE is in Heaven (New Jerusalem) and she comes down and is called the CITY in Rev 21, just like the HARLOT is called a CITY (Babylon) in Rev. 17:18. 

That means we are in Heaven for the 1000 years then come down or they come up however its going to work.