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Is Maryology Idolatry?


Spock

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1 hour ago, Spock said:

Angels4u,

" I know that all that Mary worship is idolotry.. 

I believe only God knows the hear and is our Judge,we can never say if somebody who does believe in Jesus and accept Him as his Savior is lost ,we're in no position to judge..

I hope this will help you Spock?"

 

yes it does angel. I was 98% certain Mary veneration was IDOLATRY but now I am 100% certain it is.

However, your second statement that it is only up to God, who knows the heart, to judge ones faith is probably the safest position for me to take.  I know John McArthur feels very strongly that Catholics who hold to this Mary veneration are NOT believers in Christ, but I don't feel as confident in saying that.

If my brother says he trusts in only Christ's sacrifice for his sins, I probably should not be quick to say his Mary veneration has negated his faith/testimony. I know it is not easy to say this, but I guess it is possible to be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simulateously. God can figure all that out, not me. But to be honest, I feel very uncomfortable saying that. 

Yes, you did help. Just talking about this is helping me because that long conversation I had with my brother was intense. He reminded me that Pope Pius IX in 1854 said "anyone who doesn't believe these doctrines regarding Mary is cursed and will be damned."  (Naturally my response was pretty cutting, "Do you think I care about what some dead Pope thinks about me or Mother Mary?" ) 

So, here I am telling my brother, "your idolatry may prevent you from entering the kingdom..." while he is telling me, "your lack of belief in the Blessed Mother Mary may keep you from entering the Kimgdom...." 

wow! Crazy!  

Gal 1:6  ESV I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— Gal 1:7  not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

It is more important that we live to please God than any man, including the pope.  The curses belong on those who pervert the Gospel.  The gospel lies within the Catholic Church but the church and the popes continue to make it harder to find.  They try to make a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ to be something that only the pope and the Catholic Church have, so you have to approach God through them and through angels and dead saints.  This is a lie.  Jesus is our only intercessor in heaven.  He alone is our High Priest.  And because of Him we are able to approach God ourselves without the aide of anyone anything but the blood of Jesus.  

Heb 7:24  But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable. Heb 7:25  Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them

Heb 10:16  "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," Heb 10:17  then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Heb 10:18  Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Heb 10:19  Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:20  by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, Heb 10:21  and since we have a great priest over the house of God, Heb 10:22  let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

This even tells us that there in no need for the mass to be offered up for sins since Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.  We now just remember what He has done for us.  We can enter the holy of holies by His shed blood, with a pure conscience, and enjoy His fellowship.  Our faith needs to be placed in God through His Son, and in the Word of God found in the Bible.  It is the Bible that reveals God to us through the Holy Spirit, not the pope or the church, and especially not any sanctified dead people or angels.  

Rev 19:10  Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.

We are never to fall down at the feet of any saint in heaven or on earth.  We are to worship God alone.  Venerate is another dictionary word for worship.  Semantics.

It was Jesus who said " I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."  That is Jesus' judgement on unbelievers. 

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1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

Blessings Spockster......It's been a while since w chatted,great to see you!!!!

    1-Yes I do

     2-Difficult to answer but I do believe they can be "Saved" &  it would be dangerous .....this is the kind of thing(idolotry) that can lead someone astray & away from Jesus,imo    How can someone serve both God & a false god,,,they cannot......

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King James Bible
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:24

I think this not only applies to mammon  but any false worship of any  idol ....."veneration",hmmm?    Mary is the wind & the waves in my opinion(distraction),take y our eyes of Jesus & you sink!                                                                               With love-in CHrist,Kwik

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20 hours ago, Spock said:

I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.

 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

I am interested to know his biblical explanations for all of that.

Edited by 4LdKHVCzRDj2
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1 hour ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

I am interested to know his biblical explanations for all of that.

Biblical?  Lol  

He sent me two Scott Hahn articles in which I thought I refuted with such power and precision.....but......obviously not that much power and precision. sigh! 

 

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1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Spockster......It's been a while since w chatted,great to see you!!!!

    1-Yes I do

     2-Difficult to answer but I do believe they can be "Saved" &  it would be dangerous .....this is the kind of thing(idolotry) that can lead someone astray & away from Jesus,imo    How can someone serve both God & a false god,,,they cannot......

I think this not only applies to mammon  but any false worship of any  idol ....."veneration",hmmm?    Mary is the wind & the waves in my opinion(distraction),take y our eyes of Jesus & you sink!                                                                               With love-in CHrist,Kwik

Thanks Kwik for your reply. As you can see, question two is the one that I'm most interested in seeing how people respond and how they support their answer. Question seems unanimous- veneration of Mary is idolatry which means a serious no-no in Gods sight. 

The answers coming in to question two are divided. I'm not surprised because I wrestled with that one too while looking at the scriptures. I think I could justify both sides of the coin with scripture.  Kind of like free will and election. (But please, nobody go there.) 

We all know God knows the heart, not man, right? Here is what I think, with no Biblical basis to support this so please don't quote me or use it for your own: if God looks at my brother's heart and sees he loves Mary (first love) more than Jesus, I have a bad feeling for him.  However, if God sees Christ is his first love, not Mary, this may get him an invitation to the PARTY! 

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1 hour ago, BacKaran said:

We give our all to the Triune God and no one else, no man, no woman, no children of Fatima etc..

I hear you, sister!  Sounds good to me. 

Trinity, not quartet, right! 

Edited by Spock
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18 minutes ago, Spock said:

We all know God knows the heart, not man, right? Here is what I think, with no Biblical basis to support this so please don't quote me or use it for your own: if God looks at my brother's heart and sees he loves Mary (first love) more than Jesus, I have a bad feeling for him.  However, if God sees Christ is his first love, not Mary, this may get him an invitation to the PARTY! 

Well, remember that no one who reads the BIBLE without any influence on their beliefs and faith, except YHWH'S TRUTH, 

they NEVER start to worship peter, paul nor mary.

ONLY if they are told in error to, do they,  being tricked by those who told them.

Not just about that one thing (Mary),  but everything that goes with it that is contrary to SCRIPTURE and directly opposed to YHWH'S KINGDOM.   Thus it is not as if "oh, just one thing wrong",  no, not at all;  but a whole corrupt system devoted and protected and promoting what is wrong,  and always (when they can) persecuting what is right and persecuting all those who serve YHWH .

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Caring and seeking after your brother is a commendable thing and  it is good that you also seek the ear and words of others in matters that is of utmost importance, i.e the soul.   As others have said, if what he believes in question one is not lining up with the word, then he is in error of his theology.   As to question two, scripture states clearly that God is a spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth John 4:24.   Also God is a jealous God and does not share his glory with another.    God of the Bible has given specific commands not to make any images and look to those imgaes.   If a believer is doing what is strictly forbidden by God, then what outcome is expected.   A believer cannot have Idols in his presence or bow down before them, God hates  it and i can't see how one can be saved and willfully go against Gods commandment.   But, i am not the judge of anyone's salvation, and therefore is not casting any stones. 

The dogmas of this church is persuading many to follow false doctrines.

 

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I theLord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Edited by warrior12
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3 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

Maryology IS idolatry because it's the worship of a human being.  Not allowed by God.

Hey Glory,

thanks for participating.  Would you mind answering question two as well. I just want to read the basis for your answer too. Thanks.

spock

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