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Is Maryology Idolatry?


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Guest Judas Machabeus
7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Judas,

The heavens - there is the third heaven mentioned in God`s word where the angels are, then there is the heavens of the universe, with planets & stars, etc & finally near the earth is the atmospheric heaven above us. All of these are mentioned in God`s word. He created them all & He has positions of authority to rule there.

And I agree with that commentary that says the third heaven, near God`s throne is where we will go when we die. And actually scripture show the Church, the Body of Christ believers already there.

`..you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men (OT saints) made perfect.to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So counting from our position on the earth there are 3 heavens, or areas of heaven - 1. Atmospheric. 2. Universe. 3. Third heaven. Each have quite clear demarcations & are for God`s purposes.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Okay gotcha. We're on the same page. 

Thanks for being patient

Cheers

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Guest Judas Machabeus
1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Judas

    Thanks,I understand now & no one is going to be able to provide what you are asking for because it does not say that ,if it did(accurately) I am sure it we would call that tautology & no longer a theology,do you know what I mean?In any event,in 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Thank you for being honest. You are right, they can not provide it meaning it's a man made tradition. The very thing they are against. And than they expect to hold others to their man made tradition.

There is plenty of scripture that talks about the importants of scripture and I agree that it's important. There is scriputre that says we are to hold to the tradition that is passed on orally as well. Often (I believe this is one of Shilohs arguments and a valid one) the question is asked what is Sacred Tradition ( the oral tradition Paul talks about) and what isn't? This is where the Church Fathers come in. I agree they were not inspired writers. But they are an important source for seeing what was being taught at the time they lived and from a historical stance we can trace back what oral traditions are Sacred and which are not. 

For example, there's a thread about married priests on this forum. Celibate Priesthood is NOT Sacred Tradition. This is called a discipline. We can trace it back through time and see where it beings. 

Another charge against this is that the Church Fathers didn't always agree. This is true as well, and like the Ethiopian in the books of Acts says 

Acts 8:29-31

29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?"
And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

this is why Christ established a visible authoritative teaching Church. We also see this in scripture

Matthew 18:17-19

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. * 
19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 

So when there are disagreements you go to the Church. But when all the Church Fathers are in agreement and teaching the same thing than you are seeing Sacred Tradition (the Church Father were general Bishops) as it's being passed down from generation to generation. I know all this will be rejected here, and that's fine. I know what I'm getting when I come here and that's why I come. 

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

The Scripture supports the fact that the Bible alone is the "infallible" basis for our FAITH ,not tradition

I disagree with you on this point, there are small t traditions and large T traditions. Large T traditions are the oral Traditions that Paul talks about. I've had the argument put to me that everything that was needed was put in the bible and therefore oral tradition wasn't needed...... or some variation of that. Here's my problem with that, Christianity came out of Judaism. A faith (Judaism) that had three branchs to it. Written, Oral and a teaching authority (Chair of Moses). The Aposltes continued this, no where in scripture does it say that oral tradition has ended. It says the opposite, no where does it say that a visible authorative Church stops, scripture shows the opposite (Acts 15).  And no where does it say that there is no need for a teaching Church, it says the opposite (Acts 8). 

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Certainly we can not lean on merely our own understanding......everything we need to KNOW or will come to know  is Written in the Word of God.......

I agree with the first part of this, but disagree with the second. Look at the Protestant faiths. None of them agree on one truth but all use the bible as their sole authority. See that's the claim buts it's not true. THEY are their own authority. THEY determine what scripture means. Protestants have their own version of a Pope. It's the preacher up front. Because HE is the final authority on what scripture is saying. The proof is in the number of divisions amongst Protestants. Another anomaly is "church shopping" I don't like what this preacher is saying so I'll find one I agree with. If there is one truth and Protestants all use the same scripture as their only authority than why so much division. One final thought, church shopping wouldn't exist if all the preachers were preaching the same sermon and doctrines. 

 
  Quote (Judas)

. I believe you have to build and maintain a relationship with Jesus, grow in faith and follow his teachings  

Your very own words lead me back to Sola Scriptura......all we need to know to grow in our Faith(Faith comes by hearing the Word of God) and to Understand His teachings that we may follow them,we(Believers) find in the Bible.....it is Revealed to us                                                      With love-in Christ,kwik

That's your mode of building a relationship perhaps (and I'm not knocking it, I should spend more time with his word than I do) but thats only one slice of the pie. He left us a visible authorative Church to guide us, steeped in His love and His grace. 

Scott Hahn often says (I'm paraphrasing a bit) Protestants are reading the menu while Catholics are sitting at the table of the Lamb eating the meal. 

Thank you for your reply. It's always a pleasure :)

Cheers and God Bless

 

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3 hours ago, giggling appy said:

The following is copied from the vatican's webpage.

“966 and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.”

Say WHAT !!! This is absolutely offensive because The bible says, that Jesus is Lord over all. Not mary.

Hello giggling, When I was a Protestant my reaction would have mirrored yours thinking Catholics thought of Mary as being Queen over all things. However, after years of study before my conversion to Catholicism, and to my complete surprise, I found in the truth that in no way do Catholics "worship Mary." (every Catholic I asked confirmed it. Something you may want to do)  I do not worship Mary, only God!

I do find your quoting of only ten words from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) misleading. I suggest that you go back to the CCC and read (or even post) sections 963-975 paying special attention to section 970 before casting judgement.

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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:24 AM, Fidelibus said:

. In Rom.3:23,and with all respect, I fail to see where it reads "Save for Jesus alone." That something you added, correct?

I already told you that that passage was means for God's creatures alone. Not for God in the flesh.

Now as for your other comments about seeking God, now this is just my opinion here but why continue to "seek" Him when if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and believe the only way to heaven is through the Son (and not His earthly mother), you have FOUND Him.

People are always trying to "seek" God when He is RIGHT THERE in front of you.

That is why Catholics and people of other religions waste time going on pilgrimages to "seek" God when you don't have to go ANYWHERE.

 

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30 minutes ago, Fidelibus said:

Hello giggling, When I was a Protestant my reaction would have mirrored yours thinking Catholics thought of Mary as being Queen over all things. However, after years of study before my conversion to Catholicism, and to my complete surprise, I found in the truth that in no way do Catholics "worship Mary." (every Catholic I asked confirmed it. Something you may want to do)  I do not worship Mary, only God!

I do find your quoting of only ten words from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) misleading. I suggest that you go back to the CCC and read (or even post) sections 963-975 paying special attention to section 970 before casting judgement.

You glorify Mary by giving pretending God gives her titles and privileges that belong to no one else but Him. So YES you worship her by doing so.

 

Edited by TheMatrixHasU71
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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 0:07 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

just pick some ordinary woman for this

 

On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 0:07 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

This is where we have to agree to disagree. For me it's clear Jesus is rebuking her for interrupting. 

I also disagree with your assertation that being blessed among a group does set you aside as being special. She wasn't just some woman, she was chosen by God to give him flesh and blood. Do you believe that he would just pick some ordinary woman for this? I don't. 

I'm greatful that we are able to discuss and exchange ideas.

Cheers and God Bless

 

But she was "just some ordinary woman". And I disagree with your comment about Jesus rebuking the woman because its plenty clear He did. He wasn't rebuking her for interrupting.

The meaning here is clear. The woman should not have said Blessed is just one particular person, but Jesus is telling her blessed is ANYBODY who hears the Word of god and obeys it.

 

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Blessings Judas

Quote

Thank you for being honest. You are right, they can not provide it meaning it's a man made tradition. The very thing they are against. And than they expect to hold others to their man made tradition.

You are quite welcome.....I really don't like it when anyone thinks that they are being shrugged off or held to a standard & not given the same in return,know what I mean? I certainly don't think that is the case & so I would not want you to feel that way,its just a difficult thing to answer,imo and its not that it is a "tradition" of man or any tradition at all,The Word of God does tell us we must go to Gods Word for reproof,correction for instruction in Righteousness and is profitable for doctrine.....He does not tell us that any church or ecclesia is for these things,they are not infallible......

Quote

29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?"
And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

this is why Christ established a visible authoritative teaching Church. We also see this in scripture

The Holy Spirit sent Philip......it is the Holy Spirit that Convicted the man & Revealed Gods Truth to him by hearing the WORD of GOD,this does not refer to a visible authoritive  church,that doctrine  imo is tradition of man   ......it is not what the bible says.......

Quote

no where does it say that a visible authorative Church stops

May I ask where it says anything about a visible authorative church .....?

Quote

That's your mode of building a relationship perhaps (and I'm not knocking it, I should spend more time with his word than I do) but thats only one slice of the pie. He left us a visible authorative Church to guide us, steeped in His love and His grace. 

Well there you have it!!!!lol   I am not knocking you either......the crux of it ALL is our Relationship with God in Christ    If your church helps you in this way,pointing you into the Arms of Jesus then I'm all for it but I would suggest & encourage you to  spend more time in His Word ,just you & HIM:emot-heartbeat:

Quote

Thank you for your reply. It's always a pleasure :)

Absolutely,ditto!    Only I don't really appreciate what Scott Hahn has to say,I believe there will be protestants,non-denominationals,lutherans,catholics & a whole mix of folks with no more labels.... sitting at the table of the Lamb eating the meal ...finally realizing"Oh ,this is the CHURCH,huh...how silly were we?"

                                                                                                                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

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Guest Judas Machabeus
38 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Absolutely,ditto!    Only I don't really appreciate what Scott Hahn has to say,I believe there will be protestants,non-denominationals,lutherans,catholics & a whole mix of folks with no more labels.... sitting at the table of the Lamb eating the meal ...finally realizing"Oh ,this is the CHURCH,huh...how silly were we?"

Scott's point is there is so much more that Protestants are missing out on. And I agree there will be a whole mix of folks I heaven. 

40 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

May I ask where it says anything about a visible authorative church .....?

Acts 15 Paul is sent to Jerusalem to have a dispute settled. 

Acts 15:1-2

1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

once there we see Peter talking first and than James (this authority goes back to Matt 18:17-20)

Acts 15:7

7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Acts 15:13

13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.

so we see a visible Church and see that Christians viewed the Church in Jerusalem as having final authority (because the Aposltes were there). 

we see them invoking the authority given to them back in Matt

Acts 15:23

23 with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting.

Acts 15:28

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

i hope this answers your question. 

Cheers and God Bless

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Blessings Judas

Quote

Acts 15:13-21King James Version (KJV)

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I'm sorry.....where does it say that?                              You are interpreting Acts 15:13 what verse?

Quote

Acts 15:13

13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.

so we see a visible Church and see that Christians viewed the Church in Jerusalem as having final authority (because the Aposltes were there). 

we see them invoking the authority given to them back in Matt

 

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9 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

I already told you that that passage was means for God's creatures alone. Not for God in the flesh.

But will you admit, being fallible, you could be in error with your personal interpretation of this passage? That is unless you find your interpretation infallible.

Now as for your other comments about seeking God, now this is just my opinion here but why continue to "seek" Him when if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and believe the only way to heaven is through the Son (and not His earthly mother), you have FOUND Him.

Pretty sure no Catholic believes they can attain heaven only through Mary.

People are always trying to "seek" God when He is RIGHT THERE in front of you.

But at one time will you agree you where seeking God, correct? And what about those like warrior12 and Spock that admit they are seeking for God when Romans 3:11, say's "No one seeks for God.” Again, wouldn't that be contrary to the Bible, at least, according to their (your?) interpretation of the Bible, because in Romans 3:11, it states "No one seeks for God." Which brought up my next question, as for Rom 3:23.... if "all have sinned" means that everyone, without human exception, has sinned, then "No one seeks for God," means that no one, without human exception, seeks for God. Yet, they say that they do seek for God. Which means one of the following must be true: 1. They were wrong and they do not seek for God in their life; or 2. They think the Bible is wrong when it says "No one seeks for God." Which is it? Are they not seeking for God in their lives, or do you believe they think the Bible is wrong when it says "No one" seeks for God?

That is why Catholics and people of other religions waste time going on pilgrimages to "seek" God when you don't have to go ANYWHERE.

I think you have the purpose of a pilgrimage all wrong. Going on a pilgrimage is not some aimless wandering, it is a journey with a purpose, and that purpose is to honor and worship God. This is the reason in a Christian pilgrimage. After the death and resurrection of the Incarnate God and the spread of Christianity, adherents felt a longing to tread in the footsteps of their Savior, His Holy Mother, and His chosen followers, the holy Apostles. Even in the early centuries, when millions of Christians were martyred for their Faith, the faithful flocked to the tombs of favorite saints to venerate their remains, sometimes at the risk of being martyred themselves. What were their motives? Basically it is knowing that in honoring His saints, they were honoring and worshiping God Himself. I don't think God finds that a waste of time.


 

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