Is Maryology Idolatry?

[TheMatrixHasU71]

14 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Can you give the verse that says that? 

Better yet can you give an example from scripture where God says its acceptable to pray to the dead for intercession?

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 15:16 

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you

 

In HIS name only. Not His (earthly) mother, not any other dead saint.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

34 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Do you really 100% truely believe that In the context that you are presenting it? Because all Christians I know of ask for prayers all the time. So I hope you never ask anyone to pray for you because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't think you are. So I ask you do you truely believe 100% that we are not to ask others to pray for us because of 1 Tim 2:5?

Edited April 29, 2017 by Judas Machabeus

[Fidei Defensor]

9 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Do you really 100% truely believe that In the context that you are presenting it? Because all Christians I know of ask for prayers all the time. So I hope you never ask anyone to pray for you because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't think you are. So I ask you do you truely believe 100% that we are not to ask others to pray for us because of 1 Tim 2:5?

There is difference between mediation and asking for prayer support from living believers. Here we are discussing salvation and merit and intercessor from the dead, not wither living Christians should pray for each other which obviously a good thing (Acts 6:6, Matthew 18:20). The issue is do you believe you need saints who are asleep in LORD and Mary to intercede for you, when Jesus is the Great Intercessor (Romans 8:39, Hebrews 7:25). Why would you go to mere mortals in heaven, when you can go straight to God who died for your sins (1 Peter 3:18, Colossians 2:9), can read your thoughts and hearts (Mark 2:8, Matthew 12:25, Acts 15:8).

The issue is where you placing the trust. In Mariology and Cult of Saints people trust in mortals to heal them, protect them, and pray for them, rather than going to Immortal Almighty God who lives in them (Colossians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 3:16). The Cult of Virgin Mary and Saints is an idolatry because it is placing trust in something other than God, which is a definition of idolatry.

As for praying for dead, there is a verse that has perplexed believers, but I ask why would God command praying for dead when He has said otherwise? "Do not defile yourselves by turning to mediums or to those who consult the spirits of the dead. I am the LORD your God," (Leviticus 19:31), "Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer (calls up the dead)," (Deuteronomy 18:11), "Someone may say to you, "Let's ask the mediums and those who consult the spirits of the dead. With their whisperings and mutterings, they will tell us what to do." But shouldn't people ask God for guidance? Should the living seek guidance from the dead?," (Isaiah 8:19), and "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." (Hebrews 9:27).

Now counter argument is no Christian is dead, because Jesus said, "And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" (Mark 12:26-27), and "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26). The Former verse is Jesus confronting people who do not believe in the resurrection of the dead (Sadducees), so the point isn't about praying to dead, just that those who are with God in paradise aren't dead because God is Life (John 1:4, John 14:6) and created everything (John 1:6, Colossians 1:16). Well that latter verse is talking about eternal life (John 6:40) as well as Jesus raising the dead. There is nothing in these verses that supporting talking to the dead, it simply is Christ defending the resurrection of the dead.

I have to say praying to the dead and for the dead gets to close to the forbidden practices as laid out in paragraph above (Leviticus 19:31, Deuteronomy 18:11), and since it generally leads to idolatry or focusing on something else than Jesus it is dangerous in that regard too, because Jesus told us, "Jesus replied, "The Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him." (Luke 4:8, cross ref Matthew 22:36-38). Any practice that would have a person trust, worship, and focus on anything other than Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega is another gospel, Jesus, and spirit, "I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. ² For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride^[a] to one husband—Christ. ³ But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. ⁴ You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. ¹² But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. ¹³ These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. ¹⁴ But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. ¹⁵ So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve," (2 Corinthians 11:2-4 and 12-18), "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!," (Galatians 1:8-9), take not that Mary apparitions appeared to people like angels, and she created another gospel based on trusting her, something Paul says is a curse on anyone who teaches such things, and finally we told to make Christ our all, "² Watch out for those dogs, those people who do evil, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. ³ For we who worship by the Spirit of God^[b] are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, ⁴ though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!  I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. ⁶ I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault. ⁷ I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. ⁸ Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ ⁹ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.^[c] For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. ¹⁰ I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, ¹¹ so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!" (Philippians 3:2-11).

An Eastern Orthodox priest I spoke to once had an interesting perspective, "we aren't praying for the dead, but for their works, that Jesus continue to perfect and finisher what they established, an example would be Salvation Army or the seeds the Apostles have planted that have lead to us being saved." (note: not all Eastern Orthodox Christians have this point of view, this was particular view of that one priest). This makes more sense, that you aren't praying for dead, but the seed, the ministry that continues on through living people today to be blessed and continue.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[BobRyan]

On 4/25/2017 at 7:57 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

A small correction, the apparitions have not been on going for 100 years. It's the 100th anniversary of the first apparition. 

The Fatima apparition like all apparitions are private Revelation and Catholics are not obligated to accept them or even believe them. 

As for my thoughts on Fatima, well on the day the sun "danced" in the sky there were eye witness that were Catholic and non-Catholic. I believe there was even an atheist reporter that witnessed the miracle and wrote about it. 

If someone wants to believer or not believe, I have no problem with either. As for me I believe it happened. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by thousands of people and dried up hours and hours of rain and mud in a matter of minutes. 

cheers and God Bless

 

Apparitions in Conyers Georgia every month. over a period of years.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

5 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

There is difference between mediation and asking for prayer support from living believers.

Catholics are not asking for mediation, that's a made up accusation made by Protestants. Catholic seek prayers from the Saints in heaven. 

[Fidei Defensor]

52 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Catholics are not asking for mediation, that's a made up accusation made by Protestants. Catholic seek prayers from the Saints in heaven. 

Can you share where in Roman Catholic Catechism and Canon Law it says this? According to Roman Catholic Catechism, pages 933-999, says that Catholics must believe Mary is Redeematrix, that she is a savior too. Please, explain this and even share sources. Because when I read Roman Catholic dogma is elevates Mary to a goddess positon.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

52 minutes ago, Davida said:

Christians are told in the Scripture to pray for one another! When Christians pray they ask it to be granted in Jesus name, it is JESUS our blessed Lord who intercedes for us. We are praying & asking our prayers to be granted in the most merciful , most beautiful name above all names the highest name , the most blessed, Holy name of Jesus -the Son of GOD. There is no other name that is higher or more blessed , or more Holy then the Most Precious name of Jesus. Our Father in heaven hears us when we pray in Jesus name.

Catholics believe those that are in heaven are still members of the body of Christ. So asking them to pray for you is no different than asking the Christian in the seat next to you at Church to pray for you. 

The Hail Mary for example is half scriputre. 

Luke 1:28

28 And he came to her and said, " Hail, full of grace,the Lord is with you!"

Luke 1:42

42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, " Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 

The second half is acknowledging that who she carries in her womb was divine and not just a man (mother of God..... NOT Mother of the Father but mother of Jesus who is God), and than it ends with "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

theres no asking her to take the place of Jesus, there's no asking her to bypass Jesus and go to the father. All prayer request to either Mary or any other saint is done as how David laid out in the post quoted above.

What it boils down to is, are those in heaven members of the body of Christ yes or no?

i say Yes they are and as Paul teaches no part of the body can exsist without the other and all the parts have a function and one can not do without the others.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Can you share where in Roman Catholic Catechism and Canon Law it says this? According to Roman Catholic Catechism, pages 933-999, says that Catholics must believe Mary is Redeematrix, that she is a savior too. Please, explain this and even share sources. Because when I read Roman Catholic dogma is elevates Mary to a goddess positon.

Lol oh please please give me the paragraph number that says she's a saviour. The Catechism is broken up into paragraphs so giving me pages numbers doesn't do me much good since I use the Vatican website and it doesn't have page numbers. 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

I remember now, those are paragraph line numbers, so starting with Paragraph 993 tell 999. :0 That's quite a long read.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Can you share where in Roman Catholic Catechism and Canon Law it says this? According to Roman Catholic Catechism, pages 933-999, says that Catholics must believe Mary is Redeematrix, that she is a savior too. Please, explain this and even share sources. Because when I read Roman Catholic dogma is elevates Mary to a goddess positon.

While I wait for those paragraph numbers, here's some I'll share with you. I'll also provide paragraph numbers and links.

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."¹³⁹ Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:¹⁴⁰

 

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."¹⁴¹ Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."¹⁴² Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."¹⁴³

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm#494

 

she's serving the mystery of redemption and her son and dependant upon him all by Gods grace. Doesn't sound like she being called a saviour.

 

Judas: As I am writing this you replied...... 993 talks about the resurrection.  But I think I found what you were talking about. There is one part that if you ripe it out of context you can make it sound suspicious. So let me do some underlining so nothing important gets missed here. 

 

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)⁵¹⁰ of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."⁵¹¹

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."⁵¹²

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."⁵¹³ "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."⁵¹⁴

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm#969

Judas speaking: Paragraph 969 I think is the one that brings the concern. The wording can be misunderstood in the way that Protestants do. But here's the problem with understanding 969 as to say that Mary is a redeemer, Paragraph 970 (the very next paragraph) says that she or any other created being can not be a redeemer or take the place of Jesus. Paragraph 970 completes refutes the Protestant understanding of 969. I will concede that the language used in 969 is difficult to understand, especially from the outside looking in and having anti-Marion biases in place (biased comment is not ment to be insulting. I'm Canadian so natural I would have a bias towards Canada on global issues we all have biases). But the language used in 970 is plain and straight forward.

Side bar: sorry for the formatting. Something is gliching with my phone.

Cheers and God Bless 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
Forgot second link