The Abomination of Usury and Interest, and the Slavery of Debt

[christiang]

18 minutes ago, Giller said:

Sanctification starts at salvation, the baptism of the Holy Ghost endues you with power from on high, and the initial evidence is speaking in tongues. 

Show me one verse that shows you that sanctification starts at the baptism of the Holy Ghost, because it does not, Christ's sanctifying work starts at salvation.

At salvation we get the Holy Ghost, but at the Holy Ghost baptism we are immersed in the Holy ghost (that is what baptism means).

You're not understanding this correctly, receiving the holy spirit is the point of salvation, because the correct word rendered as "salvation" is "delivered". Once you receive the holy spirit, you become literally delivered from your sinful nature. That is when you are "delivered", otherwise rendered as "saved", etc.... which all means that you have been freed of sin, you are delivered from your sinful nature. That is also the point of sanctification, because the living spirit of God is inhabiting your body, you cannot be sanctified without the holy spirit, mere belief does not sanctify you, the holy spirit does, which comes through belief in Jesus Christ.

[OneLight]

24 minutes ago, christiang said:

Indeed, but both are believers, whether a true or a false one. Did it not occur to you that the distinguishing factor behind a true or false believer is sin? Hence "by their fruits you shall know them." And also, these scriptures,

We know that every one being engendered of  God does not sin; but the one engendered of  God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (I John 5:18 [ABP])

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 [NIV])

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 [NASB])

As such, if you still sin you are actually a false believer, because sin is the difference between a true and a false believer, whether you still sin or not. Yet while you are still alive, you have the opportunity to crossover from false believer to true believer if you actually stop sinning, and receive the holy spirit and become perfected. I don't know how else to put it for you, God, while very merciful, is also very severe. If he did not spare Israelites who had been delivered from Egypt, and even committed just one sin, in the ministry that came through Moses, rest assured he will not spare you on your continuance of sins after believing, in the ministry that came through the son of God! These are words of admonishment, that you may realize that you cannot continue sinning.

More of the same false teaching. 

They both believe in the works of Christ, but both did not receive Him as their Lord and Savior.  What are the fruit you mention?  It is not sin or not sinning.  Your misusing scripture to prove a false teaching, twisting scripture.  Let's take a look at these verses in the context it was written.

Galatians 5:16-26

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

You see, Paul speaks about the battle between the flesh and the Spirit.  If true believers never sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit, Paul would never of had to write to them about the battle between the old man and the new man.

All the scripture you mention is true when used properly.  Yet, you do not yet understand the hard teachings of 1 John.  When we remain focused on Christ, we do not sin, but when we are not focused in Him, we can sin as we battle the flesh.  John is not saying we will never sin, but we have the ability to not sin. 

At this point in this discussion, I need to ask you if you never sin?

[christiang]

15 minutes ago, OneLight said:

If you follow the teaching about Cornelius in Acts 10, you will see that he had believe in God way before he ever heard about Jesus or the Holy Spirit, but believed in God and baptism.  Once her heard, he accepted and was baptized in the Holy Spirit.   You need to keep things in order to have a proper understanding. 

Oh, christiang, you are so wrong about me not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.  You condemn yourself as you are not speaking the truth, therefore, in your own teaching, are sinning, so you have not yet received the Holy Spirit yourself.  Can you see how futile your teaching is?  It is pure false and the only way you can try to show it as true is to condemn all who do not agree with you.  I suspect you are either bound to this false teaching or an over zealot young believer.  You need to be free from false teachings like this.  We can never, in this life, live without the flesh, which desires sin.  We can have glorious victories in Him, but we will sin.

Belief absolutely comes first, hence why I have been saying the holy spirit comes through belief, but belief does not automatically grant you the holy spirit immediately. I will give you another example, look at this other passage in Acts,

While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” (Acts 19:1-2 [NRSV])

You assume that just because you believed you automatically received the holy spirit, but I am telling you no, because in accordance with other scriptures, you cannot sin once you receive the holy spirit. As such, since you yourself have affirmed you still struggle with sin, you make it known that you have not yet been baptized in the holy spirit.

[OneLight]

1 minute ago, christiang said:

Belief absolutely comes first, hence why I have been saying the holy spirit comes through belief, but belief does not automatically grant you the holy spirit immediately. I will give you another example, look at this other passage in Acts,

While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” (Acts 19:1-2 [NRSV])

You assume that just because you believed you automatically received the holy spirit, but I am telling you no, because in accordance with other scriptures, you cannot sin once you receive the holy spirit. As such, since you yourself have affirmed you still struggle with sin, you make it known that you have not yet been baptized in the holy spirit.

You are making the very same error you did with Cornelius.  They believed before the Holy Spirit was given, just as the Apostles before they received the Holy Spirit.  One can believe in God without knowing about the Holy Spirit, even today, as they were never told.  That is why people need to hear about the Holy Spirit before being able to receive Him.  This was not the case in those days.  Today we know about the Holy Spirit so as scripture tells us, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ. 

How do you understand these references we have concerning the Holy Spirit and salvation in Christ?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

Ephesians 1:13-14

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

[OneLight]

19 minutes ago, OneLight said:

At this point in this discussion, I need to ask you if you never sin?

I am asking this once again.

[FresnoJoe]

On 4/3/2017 at 10:43 PM, christiang said:

There is no distinction between "societal" laws and "moral" law. Every command, even the least, must be obeyed, 

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19 [NIV])

 

On 4/3/2017 at 10:59 PM, OneLight said:

Sounds like pure legalism to me.

 

On 4/3/2017 at 11:02 PM, christiang said:

Obedience to to the commands of God is not legalism. Observance of commands that are identified as shadow laws is,

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 [NIV])

Which includes the circumcision of the flesh. You guys completely discard the entire law on the basis that shadow law is no longer observed by those in the assemblies of Jesus Christ, and that is a fatal mistake.

 

On 4/3/2017 at 11:14 PM, ricky said:

I'm struggling to see any grace in your view

 

On 4/3/2017 at 11:25 PM, christiang said:

Then must you obey the law or not? You can either do one or the other. Don't beat around the bush.

 

On 4/3/2017 at 11:31 PM, OneLight said:

Galatians 2:11-21

No Return to the Law

¹¹ Now when Peter^[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; ¹² for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. ¹³ And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

¹⁴ But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you^[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?^{[c] 15} We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, ¹⁶ knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

¹⁷ “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! ¹⁸ For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. ¹⁹ For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. ²¹ I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

 

On 4/4/2017 at 0:37 AM, christiang said:

You're quoting scripture that you do not understand that affirms the very things I am saying. A little leaven leavens the whole bread, meaning a little sin causes the entire bread to be leavened. Yet here you are saying that you cannot stop sinning. I wonder how leavened your bread is.

~

The Law Should Deflate The Pompous Self-Righteous Law "Keepers"

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 (New American Standard Bible 1977)

And Only Faith Can Replace The Sin Of Pride

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13 (New International Version)

With The Blood Of Christ

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (English Standard Version)

~

22 hours ago, ricky said:

I would like to ask Christening directly, how do you view grace? what is your concept of grace?

Amen~! Me Too....

 

[shanee]

16 hours ago, worthy said:

That can't be the case for all. Some people don't accept Christ truly. Some do it for show some do to gain things. Not everyone who accepts Christ receives the Holy Spirit.

Just like this verse states the not everyone who says lord lord will enter heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hello ,Worthy i dont think he was talking about people who dont truly accept Christ.just the people that do accept him.it was more of a point about the Holy Spirit.

[JohnD]

On 4/3/2017 at 9:48 PM, christiang said:

This study goes over why it is a sin to be in debt, to lend at interest, and to engage in various forms of usury that are common in American culture.

To start with, these and several other things are theft.

If these and other practices by their very existence devalue assets and currency... it is stealing.