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Why are people denying that Christ is presently a King?


Limey_Bob

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22 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

I did not say that Christ is ruling this world now, I believe that his kingdom is in heaven and that he is ruling there (in heaven), and not this world now. I stated that Christ's rule upon this earth begins at the second coming, it did not begin at his ascension in AD 30 approx, neither did it fully begin in AD 70 as preterists believe, it is a still future event.

Well the funny thing is that we're all here trying to figure out what your belief is.  So rather than take Scripture, a selective few verses at least, and show the reason for an eschatology - we're left poking around in the dark trying to ascertain what it is you think.

When you come on as Post-Millennialist, as the Methodist church does in America, that means certain things as they believe: like they are advancing His Kingdom here and now.  They are Post-Millennial in their approach and that is why they are so active in social programs reaching out to those less fortunate and not-believing.

So we're left with trying to figure out your brand of Post-Millennialism, and as such, we find it's a blend of aspects of other eschatological schools, and hence the confusion on many individuals as to your take on things.

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1 minute ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Funny.

If this is true, then why is that Paul says the Dead in Christ are called up by the Last Trumpet on the Day of the Lord if they are already "with" Him being ruled over as you say.

And if you had a Scriptural reference for your opinion of things heavenly, that would be nice.

 

31 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Funny.

If this is true, then why is that Paul says the Dead in Christ are called up by the Last Trumpet on the Day of the Lord if they are already "with" Him being ruled over as you say.

And if you had a Scriptural reference for your opinion of things heavenly, that would be nice.

Question:  Why is that Paul says the Dead in Christ are called up by the Last Trumpet on the Day of the Lord if they are already "with" Him being ruled over as you say?

 

At the last trump, the physical human bodies of the dead in CHRIST rise first of all from the grave, so this passage is speaking about the resurrection of the physical bodies of saints, at the last trump, which implies Christ’s second coming, when these bodies will then be reunited with their “souls” which are currently in heaven (Revelation 20:4). The last trumpet gives the context as being the physical bodies of the dead in Christ, who are rising to then be reunited with their disincarnate souls, see (1st Corinthians 15:50-54):

 

 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

To clarify, since the ascension in approximately AD 30, until Christ’s second coming he has (will) ruling over his dead saints in what is called, the intermediate state, so he has been ruling over the “souls” of his deceased saints in heaven (Revelation 20:4), where the throne of God currently is (Revelation 4:2), these saints are not these complete people in their full human nature of body and soul/spirit both together, they are just “souls.” So your question by asking how can they be called up to meet the Lord, if they are already with him, misunderstands the intermediate state, for these deceased saints are only with Christ right now, in the sense that their current state is as disincarnate souls (aka spirits).

 

The phrase, “at the last trump” (1st Corinthians 15:52), I’d regard as referring to the very end of human history, that is at the second coming of Christ. Notice that Paul’s use of “brothers” and “sisters” at verse 50 implies true Christian believers, the reference to “changed” at verse 51, implies the reuniting of resurrected human bodies with their own souls once again! The use of the word “imperishable” at verse 53, and “immortality” at verse 54, implies the eternal state, i.e. that at Christ’s second coming our bodies will be changed and made immortal, which is why dead itself ends at the second coming (verse 54). This is not said to happen specifically at the last trump, and not 1,000 years later, at the end of some “Millennium.”

 

The “last trumpet” mentioned at 1st Corinthians 15:52 is exactly the same trumpet as that mentioned at 1st Thessalonians 4:16, and that trumpet is sounded at the “day of the Lord” 1st Thessalonians 5:2, and “the day of the Lord” can only mean the second coming:

 

 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (1st Thessalonians 4:16 – 5:2, KJV).

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29 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

I did not say that Christ is ruling this world now, I believe that his kingdom is in heaven and that he is ruling there (in heaven), and not this world now. I stated that Christ's rule upon this earth begins at the second coming, it did not begin at his ascension in AD 30 approx, neither did it fully begin in AD 70 as preterists believe, it is a still future event.

For instance, you start a thread here called: Why are people denying that Christ is presently a King? - which isn't really true.  No one is denying that Jesus is the King of Kings.

And then say that you did not say that Jesus is ruling this world now, which one might very well surmise was your point after the title of the thread you started.

One could now go so far as to say you deny Jesus to be a King now since you say He is not presently ruling, but I know that's not what you are saying.

In all this, what exactly is your point?

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5 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Well the funny thing is that we're all here trying to figure out what your belief is.  So rather than take Scripture, a selective few verses at least, and show the reason for an eschatology - we're left poking around in the dark trying to ascertain what it is you think.

When you come on as Post-Millennialist, as the Methodist church does in America, that means certain things as they believe: like they are advancing His Kingdom here and now.  They are Post-Millennial in their approach and that is why they are so active in social programs reaching out to those less fortunate and not-believing.

So we're left with trying to figure out your brand of Post-Millennialism, and as such, we find it's a blend of aspects of other eschatological schools, and hence the confusion on many individuals as to your take on things.

Look I don't want to dialogue in text anymore with you, I have said repeatedly that i do not believe as most Post-millennials do, as I understand the present kingdom as spiritual and in heaven, not literal and being brought about on this earth by the churches making the world better and better. If you want to debate one on one then great, I do debates on YouTube, we agree a topic and then post alternate 10 minute videos to our channels but into a common playlist. 

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2 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

For instance, you start a thread here called: Why are people denying that Christ is presently a King? - which isn't really true.  No one is denying that Jesus is the King of Kings.

That is not true, I was called a deist and other insults by several people who assured me that only at Christ's 1,000 year earthly Millennium will his kingdom reign begin. When I say over and over that the reign at present is spiritual and in heaven, then I'm called a preterist. I give up, I do not want to dialogue with you further unless its in a one on one debate.

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Just now, Limey_Bob said:

At the last trump, the physical human bodies of the dead in CHRIST rise first of all from the grave, so this passage is speaking about the resurrection of the physical bodies of saints, at the last trump, which implies Christ’s second coming, when these bodies will then be reunited with their “souls” which are currently in heaven (Revelation 20:4).

Those souls in Revelation 20:4 are the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Christ Jesus.  They have no physical body anymore.  They are simply given new, immortal, and imperishable bodies.

The fact is, is that God doesn't need the physical body which is gone.  There are no bodies from centuries past in most cases.  Most go right back into the ground and are recycled by nature.  Only in a few cases are the bones preserved.

But I've read 1st Corinthians 15 - Paul is not saying that what was planted is changed into what is raised.  Quite the opposite!  There are TWO TYPES of bodies.  And God doesn't need the old one to fashion a new "house" for us to live in eternally.

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Just now, Limey_Bob said:

I give up, I do not want to dialogue with you further unless its in a one on one debate.

I will continue the debate as long as you post for the audience.

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5 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

One could now go so far as to say you deny Jesus to be a King now since you say He is not presently ruling, but I know that's not what you are saying.

I said he is currently ruling, I have stated this over and over again ... he is reigning now in heaven, his current reign is spiritual (over his dead saints (disincarnate spirits) in the intermediate state (Revelation 20:4). The literal physical reign of Christ from Jerusalem, upon a literal physical throne and over the earth is still future. Either debate me one on one or place me on ignore.

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1 minute ago, Limey_Bob said:

That is not true, I was called a deist and other insults by several people who assured me that only at Christ's 1,000 year earthly Millennium will his kingdom reign begin. When I say over and over that the reign at present is spiritual and in heaven, then I'm called a preterist. I give up, I do not want to dialogue with you further unless its in a one on one debate.

What is not true?

I did not call you any label.  I merely questioned the very premise of your thread's title.  You have to show some evidence that people deny Kingship to our Lord.

Instead, you make an outlandish claim about others.

Referencing both spiritual and the heavenly, does not sound like a typical Post-Millennialist in some respects, but more akin to what Futurists think who are Pre-Millennial.

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3 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

But I've read 1st Corinthians 15 - Paul is not saying that what was planted is changed into what is raised.  Quite the opposite!  There are TWO TYPES of bodies.  And God doesn't need the old one to fashion a new "house" for us to live in eternally.

Oh so now you are denying the resurrection of the body, a key part of Christian theology, 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 states that our bodies are changed .... so the resurrection is of our bodies, which are changed (i.e. glorified). we are not given a new (meaning a completely different physical body), we get the old one back, but it is changed (glorified) so that it is the same body but now better. 

 

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 

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