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Immaculate conception


gdemoss

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Guest shiloh357
2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

The idea is that Mary could be born sinless - from a sinful mother. But Jesus could not do that - He would need a sinless mother. So then Mary was born sinless even though her mother was a fallen human being with a sinful nature.

It's interesting how Catholics reason this.   Mary had to be sinless so that Jesus would not be tainted by her sin.   But if we follow that argument through, then Mary's mother would also have to be born sinless, and so would her mother and there would, logically, have to be an endless succession of immaculate conceptions all the way back in odor to arrive at a sinless Mary.

But the RCC states that Mary was created sinless thus removing the need for Mary's mother and grandmother and so on to be sinless, as well.   But If God can do that, why would there need to be an immaculate conception?  Why couldn't God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary simply make Jesus sinless, thus alleviating any need for Mary to be born sinless?

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Those who have been deceived into believing the lie, that Mary was sinless, do not realise that if Mary was made perfect at conception then Jesus would have a perfect body that would not suffer, get tired, be able to be tortured, & finally die. We need to remember that death came after Adam had a perfect body. So Mary must have not been perfect for she passed on to the Lord a human body that had the consequences of the fall.

 Marilyn.

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On 4/9/2017 at 9:54 PM, Fidelibus said:

Thank you gdemoss for your reply and personal insight.  As for Original sin and the fall of man,and the Catholic Churches teaching on it.  I would suggest going online to see the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It would be to much to post, but I suggest looking at paragraphs 402-411. Maybe after you do that, we could continue our discussion on the fall of man. The reason for my not posting them is..... to be honest, if you are anything like myself, I tend to skip over extremly long posts. I know.... I know, I should read them. Oops! 

Also gdemoss, I'd like to address something you stated is the first paragraph;

 

 

This statement make me think back to my days as a Protestant where I was taught and believed Mary was nothing more that a mere vessel. Do you believe this?  However, what I came to learn in my conversion, this wasn't the case at all, mere vessels cannot give their considered consent for being used for their intended purpose. Take Lk.1:28 for example."And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Ever hear of the word "kecharitomene?" The Greek title "full of grace" comes from it. It describes a "perfection" and "abundance" of grace. In other words, Mary was proclaimed by the angel to be with a perfection of grace, which was a very powerful statement. How can Mary be completely and perfectly with God's grace, yet still have sin left in her? Even some of the Fathers of Protestantism believed Mary to be without sin, especially if she was completely filled with God's grace. I just can't seem to find where in history where Protestants came to believe otherwise. Do you know when? Also, Have you ever noticed that Luke 1:28 happens to be the only place in the Bible where anyone is addressed with the important title of "full of grace?" I thought that was an interesting fact.

No, luke 1:28 is not the only place where that word is used.  It is also used to describe us in Ephesians 1:6.  

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Guest shiloh357
29 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Those who have been deceived into believing the lie, that Mary was sinless, do not realise that if Mary was made perfect at conception then Jesus would have a perfect body that would not suffer, get tired, be able to be tortured, & finally die. We need to remember that death came after Adam had a perfect body. So Mary must have not been perfect for she passed on to the Lord a human body that had the consequences of the fall.

 Marilyn.

No, Jesus' body was not affected by the Fall.   Jesus didn't die as result of the fall.  Jesus died when he chose to die. Man is not ultimately responsible for Jesus death.  If Jesus had wanted to hang on the cross for 100 years, he could have done so.   He was in complete control of the events surrounding his death including the very exact moment he wanted to die.

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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

No, Jesus' body was not affected by the Fall.   Jesus didn't die as result of the fall.  Jesus died when he chose to die. Man is not ultimately responsible for Jesus death.  If Jesus had wanted to hang on the cross for 100 years, he could have done so.   He was in complete control of the events surrounding his death including the very exact moment he wanted to die.

Hi Shiloh,

I understand what you are saying that Jesus chose when He was to die, however we need to realise that Jesus experienced tiredness, suffering, etc which shows that His body was not perfect. Mary thus did not pass on to Jesus a perfect body as she was born in sin.

 

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 But the RCC states that Mary was created sinless thus removing the need for Mary's mother and grandmother and so on to be sinless, as well.   But If God can do that, why would there need to be an immaculate conception?  Why couldn't God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary simply make Jesus sinless, thus alleviating any need for Mary to be born sinless?

Good point - and in fact that is exactly what He did! :)

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46 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

I understand what you are saying that Jesus chose when He was to die, however we need to realise that Jesus experienced tiredness, suffering, etc which shows that His body was not perfect. Mary thus did not pass on to Jesus a perfect body as she was born in sin.

 

Marilyn.

This is a good point - Jesus was not born with the perfect strength and physical primordial perfection as Adam coming directly from the hand of God. Rather Jesus would have looked like any average guy in his day. Not someone capable of living 900+ years as was Adam...not one of the giants of Genesis 6 before the flood

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1 hour ago, Davida said:

I wonder what the ones that believe this would say Jesus opinion of His mother was, what was HIS relationship with this alleged perfect being - WAS Mary HIS  mentor in their deceived minds??   They surely don't know the Holy blessed Son of God Jesus , that's why I have come to the conclusion that it is a "different" Jesus that the RCC is  presenting & how could the followers of the RCC have a  relationship with the True JESUS when they get His very lineage wrong & His relationship with HIS mother wrong?

There was an instance where someone in the crowd shouted out a "blessed be Mary mother of Jesus" statement in front of Christ. You see it in Luke 11 and Jesus response to that acclamation begins with "on the contrary" - 

28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Imagine if every time a "blessed virgin Mary" paragraph were to be said in the Catholic Church ... all the congregation were to give Christ's response beginning with "on the contrary..." -- would it even be "allowed"?

It is possible of course that they do that very thing in the Catholic church from time to time. I would not know. Maybe a Catholic member here can tell us.

 

Edited by BobRyan
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5 hours ago, BobRyan said:

The idea is that Mary could be born sinless - from a sinful mother. But Jesus could not do that - He would need a sinless mother. So then Mary was born sinless even though her mother was a fallen human being with a sinful nature.

this idea makes no sense though, for whoever lives by it

if Mary was sinless, there would be no point in Jesus' coming in the first place. Mary was a great woman, no one can deny that, but she was as human as anyone else.

Edited by Adsy86
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8 minutes ago, Adsy86 said:

this idea makes no sense though, for whoever lives by it

if Mary was sinless, there would be no point in Jesus' coming in the first place. Mary was a great woman, no one can deny that, but she was as human as anyone else.

If all that we needed was "a sinless being" then any angel in heaven or as you say a supposedly-sinless Mary could have come. But Jesus need to do more than be sinless. In John 14 Jesus said "if you have seen Me - you have seen the Father" - nobody could say that but God the Son. Mary could not say it... a sinless angel from heaven incarnated as man could not have said that. Jesus revealed the Father to mankind. What is more - Jesus "is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2. No being in heaven, no being from earth - could have absorbed/engulfed/sustained all the torment owed for all the sins for all mankind in all of time. God alone could do that. Jesus paid the second-death torment owed by every sinner - the exact amount owed for each person...for each sin. The payment that the Law demanded - fully met.

Edited by BobRyan
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