Who or what is the city which descends (Revelation 21:9)?

[Limey_Bob]

“¹Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away ….  ⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. ¹¹” (Revelation 21:1-4 and 21:9-11, KJV).

 

⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ⁵³ For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ⁵⁴ When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1^st Corinthians 15:52-54, KJV).

 

I have heard of many descriptions of the city, which is mentioned at Revelation 21:2 and 10, which descends down from God out of heaven, as a literal cubic stone structure of enormous dimensions. But such an understanding is completely mistaken, as related verses (verses 2 and 9), describes this city as the bride, the wife of the lamb, which is an obvious description of the church, albeit, using poetic language. The context is the second coming of Christ, and it is either at this glorious event (or very shortly after it), that the deceased saints of God, who had been ruling and reigning with Christ, as disincarnate spirits (that is as “souls” Revelation 20:4), accompany Christ back to this earth, in order to then receive their now resurrected and glorified bodies (1^st Corinthians 15:52-53). This happens at the “last trump” (1^st Corinthians 15:52), and when this happens, death itself ends, which prevents the interpretation that this passage is referring to a thousand year earthly Millennial reign upon this earth, at the end of which there will be a war with more death then taking place (1^st Corinthians 15:54). So this “last trump” must refer to the second coming of Christ, it is also alluded to at (1^st Thessalonians 4:16), where it is associated with “the day of the Lord” (1^st Thessalonians 5:2), which can only imply the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:49 AM, Limey_Bob said:

“¹Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away ….  ⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. ¹¹” (Revelation 21:1-4 and 21:9-11, KJV).

 

⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ⁵³ For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ⁵⁴ When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1^st Corinthians 15:52-54, KJV).

 

I have heard of many descriptions of the city, which is mentioned at Revelation 21:2 and 10, which descends down from God out of heaven, as a literal cubic stone structure of enormous dimensions. But such an understanding is completely mistaken, as related verses (verses 2 and 9), describes this city as the bride, the wife of the lamb, which is an obvious description of the church, albeit, using poetic language.

Shalom, Limey_Bob.

No, these verses don't describe the "churches" as the wife of the Lamb. They clearly say that the CITY is prepared AS the wife of the Lamb! "the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband" and “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

It's not about the "churches"; it's about the CITY! These verses aren't squeezing the "church" into the scene; they are using a simile and a metaphor to represent the CITY AS a "bride," clean and beautifully adorned!

On 4/8/2017 at 6:49 AM, Limey_Bob said:

The context is the second coming of Christ, and it is either at this glorious event (or very shortly after it), that the deceased saints of God, who had been ruling and reigning with Christ, as disincarnate spirits (that is as “souls” Revelation 20:4), accompany Christ back to this earth, in order to then receive their now resurrected and glorified bodies (1^st Corinthians 15:52-53). This happens at the “last trump” (1^st Corinthians 15:52), and when this happens, death itself ends, which prevents the interpretation that this passage is referring to a thousand year earthly Millennial reign upon this earth, at the end of which there will be a war with more death then taking place (1^st Corinthians 15:54). So this “last trump” must refer to the second coming of Christ, it is also alluded to at (1^st Thessalonians 4:16), where it is associated with “the day of the Lord” (1^st Thessalonians 5:2), which can only imply the second coming of Jesus Christ.

You're trying to squeeze too much into these verses. Revelation clearly points out the various events, starting with the Last Trumpet being in Revelation 11, when YHWH God begins His reign with His Messiah Yeshua` in place as its visible King!

Furthermore, you're not using a correct definition of "soul." A "soul," Hebrew "nefesh" and Greek "psuchee," is an "AIR-BREATHING CREATURE (CREATED BEING)." That's kinda hard to do if that "creature" isn't a living body!

The Day of the Lord was at the end of the Millennium - the 1,000 years. The New Earth and its New Sky begin AFTER the Fire and the Great White Throne Judgment, and have NOTHING directly to do with the Millennium. Instead, Revelation 21 and 22 are about the beginning of the Eternal State!

Furthermore, with so much detail, these descriptions MUST be talking about a literal city!

[Michael37]

On 10/9/2021 at 1:58 AM, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, with so much detail, these descriptions MUST be talking about a literal city!

And on the flip side we have the detail . . .

Rev 19:7-8  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."  (8)  And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

[Marilyn C]

21 hours ago, Michael37 said:

And on the flip side we have the detail . . .

Rev 19:7-8  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."  (8)  And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Hi Michael,

God uses the SYMBOL bride in two places for two purposes.

1. For Israel. He is their `husband,` master. And that is, first in time, (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) & later in eternity. (sand of the sea shore - predominant place, on earth.)

2. For the City. That reveals God`s glory over this community of people. And that is in eternity. (Rev. 21: 2, 10 & 11) (stars of the heavens - prominent place but not the predominant place in the heavens.)

[Dennis1209]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:58 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Limey_Bob.

No, these verses don't describe the "churches" as the wife of the Lamb. They clearly say that the CITY is prepared AS the wife of the Lamb! "the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband" and “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

It's not about the "churches"; it's about the CITY! These verses aren't squeezing the "church" into the scene; they are using a simile and a metaphor to represent the CITY AS a "bride," clean and beautifully adorned!

You're trying to squeeze too much into these verses. Revelation clearly points out the various events, starting with the Last Trumpet being in Revelation 11, when YHWH God begins His reign with His Messiah Yeshua` in place as its visible King!

Furthermore, you're not using a correct definition of "soul." A "soul," Hebrew "nefesh" and Greek "psuchee," is an "AIR-BREATHING CREATURE (CREATED BEING)." That's kinda hard to do if that "creature" isn't a living body!

The Day of the Lord was at the end of the Millennium - the 1,000 years. The New Earth and its New Sky begin AFTER the Fire and the Great White Throne Judgment, and have NOTHING directly to do with the Millennium. Instead, Revelation 21 and 22 are about the beginning of the Eternal State!

Furthermore, with so much detail, these descriptions MUST be talking about a literal city!

I agree with your understanding of the New Jerusalem. I'd like to bring up some things for comment, and questions I have. I've posed this type of questioning before, with little response from anyone. 

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I would assume, the Father's house with many mansions, would be the New Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven to the new earth? Taken in context, this appears to be the eternal dwelling place on earth for believers of all ages; as evidenced by the twelve gates and twelve foundations. Would I be correct so far?

Given its rectangular dimensions of roughly 1,500 x 1,500 x 1,500 miles and other thoughts; I suspect the word "mansions" in our vernacular, might be better translated as rooms? Are we to take John 14:2 as we will receive our own personal rooms; or is this a collective place everyone dwells, to worship the Lord and congregate? If these are personal individual dwellings or rooms; is raises another series of questions I have, that I will not delve into at present. 

It appears to me, earth will be our eternal home, Heaven is coming to earth and God will dwell with us for all of eternity. I realize at this point; all believers of all ages will have their glorified bodies. 

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

As a pilot, I know the requirements of flying above 11,500 feet, and why. I've pondered the height of the New Jerusalem, and wondered about the only two things my mind is capable of. Either the earth's atmosphere is greatly expanded; or in our glorified bodies, we do not need to breath? The correct answer to this question, brings up additional questions I've thought about, such as:

Eating; is the partaking of the "Tree of Life" in Revelation literal, or symbolic and figurative, or both? Jesus is the Tree of Life; but in Revelation and in Genesis, it appears to me to be literal trees, producing 12 types of fruit? 

You ever tossed around those hard questions this side of eternity?

 

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Michael,

God uses the SYMBOL bride in two places for two purposes.

1. For Israel. He is their `husband,` master. And that is, first in time, (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) & later in eternity. (sand of the sea shore - predominant place, on earth.)

2. For the City. That reveals God`s glory over this community of people. And that is in eternity. (Rev. 21: 2, 10 & 11) (stars of the heavens - prominent place but not the predominant place in the heavens.)

True, but still we have the Lamb's wife arrayed in the righteous acts of the saints. This detail is forever exquisite.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

True, but still we have the Lamb's wife arrayed in the righteous acts of the saints. This detail is forever exquisite.

However we, the Body of Christ are righteous IN Christ. The Lamb`s wife, Israel are righteous because of Christ revealed by the righteous acts. 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree with your understanding of the New Jerusalem. I'd like to bring up some things for comment, and questions I have. I've posed this type of questioning before, with little response from anyone. 

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I would assume, the Father's house with many mansions, would be the New Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven to the new earth? Taken in context, this appears to be the eternal dwelling place on earth for believers of all ages; as evidenced by the twelve gates and twelve foundations. Would I be correct so far?

 

You ever tossed around those hard questions this side of eternity?

 

Hi Dennis,

May I make a comment. The `mansions` are dwellings, yes for those in the New Jerusalem which comes DOWN out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) Whereas we, the Body of Christ will be higher up with the Lord on His throne in the angelic realm. (Rev. 3: 21) 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I agree with your understanding of the New Jerusalem. I'd like to bring up some things for comment, and questions I have. I've posed this type of questioning before, with little response from anyone. 

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I would assume, the Father's house with many mansions, would be the New Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven to the new earth? Taken in context, this appears to be the eternal dwelling place on earth for believers of all ages; as evidenced by the twelve gates and twelve foundations. Would I be correct so far?

Shalom, Dennis.

Yes, I believe you're correct.

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Given its rectangular dimensions of roughly 1,500 x 1,500 x 1,500 miles and other thoughts; I suspect the word "mansions" in our vernacular, might be better translated as rooms? Are we to take John 14:2 as we will receive our own personal rooms; or is this a collective place everyone dwells, to worship the Lord and congregate? If these are personal individual dwellings or rooms; is raises another series of questions I have, that I will not delve into at present. 

Yes, but consider the size of this city! The Greek stadion (neuter; plural, stadia) is the same as the Roman stad which we can see by mile markers all over Europe and the Near East. Each stadion is 607.142222.. feet long. Multiply that number of feet by 12,000 and you get 7,285,706.66666... feet, and if you divide that number by 5,280 feet/mile, you will get 1,379.86868686... miles! Put that in perspective:

That's the distance from Tampa, FL, to Bar Harbor, ME! That distance is both the distance along the east and west walls from south to north, but it is also the distance along the north and south walls from east to west! That makes the perimeter of the city = 5,519.47474747... miles! Divide that by twelve, and one gets 460 (459.9562289) miles between gates! Furthermore, the height of the city is also the 1,379.868686... miles high! Rooms? I think those could be some SIZABLE rooms! From Florida to Maine?! Those rooms could be as big as ... well ... MANSIONS! LOL!

Will we need to sleep? I don't think so. Will we need to be protected from the elements? No, we're inside a massive city! What are these "rooms/mansions" for? Well, there's two things I can think of. First, they could be used for get-togethers. Having company over may be a common use for these "rooms." Second, someone (?) has suggested that these rooms may be trophy rooms displaying the many ways that YHWH God stepped in for this person and helped him/her throughout life.

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

It appears to me, earth will be our eternal home, Heaven is coming to earth and God will dwell with us for all of eternity. I realize at this point; all believers of all ages will have their glorified bodies. 

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That's beautiful! It's precisely what I believe, too.

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

As a pilot, I know the requirements of flying above 11,500 feet, and why. I've pondered the height of the New Jerusalem, and wondered about the only two things my mind is capable of. Either the earth's atmosphere is greatly expanded; or in our glorified bodies, we do not need to breath?

I believe that the foundation stones are foundational to different parts of the city. That's why I believe that, as seen in my avatar above, each foundation is a different level of the city. Each foundational level has its own atmosphere, and like a pressurized cabin, every one of the twelve foundations will be as though it will be at sea level. 

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

The correct answer to this question, brings up additional questions I've thought about, such as:

Eating; is the partaking of the "Tree of Life" in Revelation literal, or symbolic and figurative, or both?

It's literal. You will be able to eat from the "Tree of Life" species at any time. Our bodies will glow; that is, they actually give off light energy in the visible range, not just heat in the infrared range. I believe that we will give off more energy and be able to process food more completely. Thus, I believe that we will eliminate waste in a whole new way, perhaps burning off the food so that only gases are eliminated.

On 10/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Jesus is the Tree of Life; but in Revelation and in Genesis, it appears to me to be literal trees, producing 12 types of fruit? 

You ever tossed around those hard questions this side of eternity.

Sure, I have. Yeshua` is never said to be the "Tree of Life," and yes, it is a literal tree species. It produces 12 kinds of fruit and produces fruit every month. Whether that means that a different fruit is produced each month or that all 12 are produced each month, I don't know. The Scriptures are silent about that.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Retrobyter
to fix the wrong word

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Dennis,

May I make a comment. The `mansions` are dwellings, yes for those in the New Jerusalem which comes DOWN out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) Whereas we, the Body of Christ will be higher up with the Lord on His throne in the angelic realm. (Rev. 3: 21) 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but that's not right. Consider:

Revelation 21:22-22:5 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, andyielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it (the city); and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If you want to be in some "Heaven" with the angels above it, that's up to you. But, the throne of God and of the Lamb will be IN the New Jerusalem. Wouldn't you rather be with Them?

Edited October 12, 2021 by Retrobyter