Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said: Believing only comes once. "Believed", past tense.. Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. The Bible always uses the present tense of "believing" as a condition of final and future salvation. As in the example you use here, the Bible does have several examples of the aorist tense of "believe" and "saved" when it concerns an individuals stepping from death into life. We would call this "conversion," or being "born-again." This experience is accurately shown as a decisive act by the aorist tense. But stepping into salvation is not speaking of future or final salvation. That is not the context in these passages. Where the Bible speaks of a believers future and final salvation, we see a consistency of the Scriptural usage of the present tense which establishes that one must continue in this belief to have a present tense salvation. Since this does not speak of final salvation, the aorist tense has no bearing on the present tense usage as a condition in other passages, as in Jn. 3:16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I think one of the clear and most remarkably indisputable instance to this question lies in 1Cor 5:5 and 1Tim 1:18-20... I rejoice in the reality of being of God by new birth and these truths ring clear to the guided hearts of Scripture. Just a general knowledge of Scripture will produce the fact that a division exists in God's Word from salvation to that of sanctification... The perverters of Scripture use this mix and match across both instruction sets so as to confuse the clear and distinct fact what God has done there is no created element that can undo! Romans 8:38 (KJV) [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This list represents all the created of God and it is complete.... eternal security is not ever in question in Scripture only to those whom pervert the way, truth and life that Jesus offers all those who come to Him. For you see all that are His have this within them John 6:68 (KJV) [68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [69] And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Now I can walk away from this only if I have not life in me... but if I am life I cannot return to death or this would not be true 1 John 2:19 (KJV) [19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. To take works- that which is the manipulation of things present and conjoin them to The Blood of The Son of God makes this Scripture moot John 8:23 (KJV) [23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. clearly the perverters of life wish to make you think that anything of this life can be manipulated to gain life from where Jesus is from... but that is silly isn't it! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: This list represents all the created of God and it is complete.... eternal security is not ever in question in Scripture only to those whom pervert the way, truth and life that Jesus offers all those who come to Him. It is a sad state of affairs within the Church when the best argument for a doctrinal assumption is an appeal to one out of context passage that does not prove the point, and suggesting that one's salvation rests upon faith in blind dogmatism and ad hominem fear mongering. Salvation according to the Gospel is in Christ, not some doctrine of assurance. Eternal Security is nowhere in the Bible. But I will concede your argument that it is nowhere questioned in Scripture... and neither is the Easter Bunny! I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 22 minutes ago, Jeff2 said: It is a sad state of affairs within the Church when the best argument for a doctrinal assumption is an appeal to one out of context passage that does not prove the point, and suggesting that one's salvation rests upon faith in blind dogmatism and ad hominem fear mongering. Salvation according to the Gospel is in Christ, not some doctrine of assurance. Eternal Security is nowhere in the Bible. But I will concede your argument that it is nowhere questioned in Scripture... and neither is the Easter Bunny! I wonder why? The Scriptures are replete with solid evidence that God can carry through on His promises and handiwork. It's a simple premise that our Salvation is secure in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Teditis said: The Scriptures are replete with solid evidence that God can carry through on His promises and handiwork. And yet, say nothing of Eternal Security. 1 minute ago, Teditis said: It's a simple premise that our Salvation is secure in Him. Confidence in a doctrine and being dogmatic about it does not prove the doctrine. I have no doubts that we are secure in Christ and that life is in the Son, yet a doctrine of Eternal Security is foreign to the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Read harder... in the Gospel according to John, alone we have: John 10:27-29 ESV My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4LdKHVCzRDj2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,453 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 1,453 Days Won: 6 Joined: 11/02/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1991 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Behold said: And who but the DEVIL would want "christians" chasing other christians around trying to make them doubt their salvation is eternal and secure? Interesting point. As Jesus has assured us that if we believe in Him, we will have eternal life. That is a security, definitely. "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." - John 5:24 Now, what is faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1 Dictionary definition: "complete trust or confidence in someone or something" We know that we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, as it is written: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" - Ephesians 2:8 "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" - Titus 3:5 "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind." - James 1:6 Then when someone relies on something else other than Jesus Christ to be saved it automatically brings fear, doubt (lack of faith), because that someone knows he/she can and will eventually fail. Jesus never failed, and He will never; just place your faith in Him and you are saved. He gave us no reason to doubt, He assured us: "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:17-18 Then if you believe in Jesus, He said to you if you believe in Him you will have eternal life. No reason to worry, he is faithful. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9 Our part is to believe (have faith), His part is to work on us and take care of the rest (through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit). Because through our merit or works we cannot and will not be saved (as clearly observed in the Old Testament). Salvation is only possible through faith in Him - the Lord Jesus Christ. "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”" - Galatians 3:11 God bless and guide us in all truth, in Jesus' name. Amen! Edited April 12, 2017 by 4LdKHVCzRDj2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teditis said: Read harder... in the Gospel according to John, alone we have: John 10:27-29 ESV My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Allow me to "Read Harder." John 10:27-29 ESV My sheep hear (present tense) my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (present tense). I give them (present tense, conditioned upon present tense hearing and following) eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. There is no question that these are words of assurance of salvation. The question is, “who” is this promise given to? The Sheep! So, according to Christ, what constitutes someone being a “Sheep”? “My sheep hear (present tense) my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (present tense).” Anyone not presently hearing (listening to Jesus) and presently following Him, are not Sheep! I'm not going to argue that Jesus is wrong about this! John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. This statement is nothing more than a promise that God will not turn anyone away. It is the promise that all are welcome to come to Christ. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears (present tense) my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Who does not come into judgment, and has passed from death to life? Only those that presently are hearing and believing. For Eternal Security to be true, one has to prove from Scripture that those that are not presently hearing and believing are promised that they will not come into judgment, and have passed from death to life. John 10:28 I give them (present tense) eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Any passage without a context is a pretext. Who is Jesus (present tense) giving eternal life? Flying Monkeys from the Wizard of Oz? No! There is a context. Only the Sheep are given this promise! And who does Jesus say are the Sheep? Only those that are present tense hearing and present tense following Him. Do I need to read harder? I find it quite ironic that the "proofs" for Eternal Security are the very proofs the Bible understands to mean that Eternal Security is false! Edited April 12, 2017 by Jeff2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said: And who but the DEVIL would want "christians" chasing other christians around trying to make them doubt their salvation is eternal and secure? And who but the DEVIL would want "Christians" to live in a false carnal security as he promised Eve in the Garden? Edited April 12, 2017 by Jeff2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts