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Does the Spirit always remain in the born-again believer?


ZacharyB

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Guest Teditis
8 minutes ago, ZacharyB said:

It's blatantly obvious that your heart is hardened against ...

God's 100+ dire warnings in the NT (written to believers in the churches)

all of which combine together to threaten loss of salvation.

One of the most obvious proofs that salvation is a PROCESS until death ...

15 NT verses teach us the believer MUST endure in the faith until the end of his life to receive eternal life!

Your false claims are growing tiresome.... God clearly has shown that Once Saved, Always Saved. He's not slack on His promises to us.

Salvation is not a life long hoping that we're able to record our manifold sins and then repent of each one... an impossible task.

God takes us unto His own when we repent and give our lives to Him; then He Seals us with the Holy Spirit forever.

It's His work that Saves us... not our works. It's His working in us that keeps us close to Him.

The one's that "fall away" are accounted for in 1 John:

1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff2 said:

Once again, not a singular proof of Eternal Security to be found. I'm not surprised, God does not contradict Himself!

Jeff, do you understand what that post is about. Agape love in the believer..

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55 minutes ago, ZacharyB said:

Throughout the Bible, God requires co-operation between He and man (except for the creation, lol).

His covenants always required co-operation between He and man.

But, we're not in a new covenant, are we?

We're in that same covenant as the Israelites ... disobediently sinning our way to heaven!

Many and lols.

Thanks for the response Zach(hope it's ok to shorten your name)!

I could be wrong but I suspect your making light of my commentary by asking a question that we already know that answer to but you feel trumps my suppositions.  Fair enough.  It's difficult to make that known to a believer who would say yes, we are in the same covenant as the Israelites except for the fact that now its not based on our promises but better ones.  Salvation has always been by faith through grace.  If it wasn't then the old covenant you're describing makes folk like Elijah and Enoch sinners who made it to heaven sinning.

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1 hour ago, Teditis said:

The one's that "fall away" are accounted for in 1 John:

1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. The context of the verse in question is dealing with the false teachers who had infiltrated the church in which John is writing to. They wore the label "Christian," but it was the Gnostic version of Christianity.

No one can deny that there is such a thing of people being "members" on a human level, and not "members" a spiritual level within the Church. But nothing within the passage states that they were never genuine Christians to begin with, but "They were not of us," states that they were not in sympathy with the Church at the time of their withdrawal. It does not signify that they were never at any time, genuine Christians. The fact that there are withered and fruitless branches now in the true vine (John 15:2) does not prove that those branches were never alive, but, rather, it proves their former life.

To say "If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith," is the same nonsense as saying, "If I ever leave Idaho, then I was never in Idaho."

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Guest Teditis
8 minutes ago, Jeff2 said:

 While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. The context of the verse in question is dealing with the false teachers who had infiltrated the church in which John is writing to. They wore the label "Christian," but it was the Gnostic version of Christianity.

No one can deny that there is such a thing of people being "members" on a human level, and not "members" a spiritual level within the Church. But nothing within the passage states that they were never genuine Christians to begin with, but "They were not of us," states that they were not in sympathy with the Church at the time of their withdrawal. It does not signify that they were never at any time, genuine Christians. The fact that there are withered and fruitless branches now in the true vine (John 15:2) does not prove that those branches were never alive, but, rather, it proves their former life.

To say "If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith," is the same nonsense as saying, "If I ever leave Idaho, then I was never in Idaho."

All you ever offer is criticism of Scriptures that don't suit your false doctrine... you haven't got any Scripture to backup what you say... only opinions.

Just mocking, lame pseudo-philosophies and logic fallacies.

Any person who claim that they are of Christ and aren't sealed with the presence of the Holy Spirit, fall into the "category" to whom John was speaking

about.. not just Gnostics. You're quick to believe some false teaching someone gave you about this passage, I wonder why you can't be as quick to trust God?

I'm tired of listening to it all.. stay stuck in your false doctrine if that's where your heart is... I do hope that you turn back to God and ask the Holy Spirit to

guide you into understanding how God is the one who provides for our sustaining Grace and Mercy through an Eternal Security in Him.

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Blessings Teditis

   Nicely said only I am surprised that even you think both Zack & Jeff2 or talking about SAlvation by works.....that is not at all what they are taking about......I too am very tired of the discussion because there is no way any human being can make another human being Understand what Jesus said "If you Love ME....."

   How many folks do you suppose truly believe they are Saved because they believe what is Written in Romans 10:9.....just as the demons believe(as we know)......they will tell you most assuredly that Jesus died for the sins of the world and He was Risen on the 3rd Day and so they are Saved by Gods Grace......quite a lot,right? I wonder how many of those wolves come down from the pulpit and go sneak into the rectory with somebodys wife while theirs are just outside with the congregants......and many others who transgress daily & in their hearts they have no love for anyone or hardly ever talk to Jesus,,,,,& they bear no fruits,what happened? Where they ever really SAved to begin with or did their hearts harden from continuing in sin that they just dont care to have a RElationship with God in Christ......well,then you will surely say"THey were not Saved to begin with" Why,they said the sinners prayer,they believe Romans 10:9?

    Anyone who habitually leads a sinful life & continues in sin had better think twice about what they believe,,,,,,if they don't understand that Jesus took their place on that cross & have no Relationship with Him then something is dreadfully wrong,I think it is far better a "Christian" doubt their Salvation and re-examine their own heart because God Certainly knows their heart .....without having a Blessed Assurance that leaves no room for "doubt" because that man is FILLED with Faith then something is not right,& having that kind of FAITH does produce good works........its not the works that Saves a man,it is Gods Grace ......having no works is having no Faith.......imo        God Bless<kwik

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Hi Jeff2

Quote

To say "If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith," is the same nonsense as saying,

I agree,I could never make such a statement because I cannot possibly have known what only God Knows,the heart of a man......You will have the same rebuttals,they will say that OSAS....& you are either Saved & SAved Always & cannot LOSE your Salvation......never considering that no,you can never LOSE Salvation but you can certainly reject it

I've been over this spo many times,I don't believe it is one way or the other.....I believe there is the 3rd option,having been Saved but choose to rebel & reject God,,,,,,pretty much almost like lucifer did,,,,,he was actually IN HEAVEN & chose to reject God!!! And He was made higher than me!!!! I'll stick with Jesus so that I stay in continual Relationship with Him because HE in me is greater than he who is in the world.......

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Guest Teditis
10 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Teditis

   Nicely said only I am surprised that even you think both Zack & Jeff2 or talking about SAlvation by works.....that is not at all what they are taking about......I too am very tired of the discussion because there is no way any human being can make another human being Understand what Jesus said "If you Love ME....."

   How many folks do you suppose truly believe they are Saved because they believe what is Written in Romans 10:9.....just as the demons believe(as we know)......they will tell you most assuredly that Jesus died for the sins of the world and He was Risen on the 3rd Day and so they are Saved by Gods Grace......quite a lot,right? I wonder how many of those wolves come down from the pulpit and go sneak into the rectory with somebodys wife while theirs are just outside with the congregants......and many others who transgress daily & in their hearts they have no love for anyone or hardly ever talk to Jesus,,,,,& they bear no fruits,what happened? Where they ever really SAved to begin with or did their hearts harden from continuing in sin that they just dont care to have a RElationship with God in Christ......well,then you will surely say"THey were not Saved to begin with" Why,they said the sinners prayer,they believe Romans 10:9?

    Anyone who habitually leads a sinful life & continues in sin had better think twice about what they believe,,,,,,if they don't understand that Jesus took their place on that cross & have no Relationship with Him then something is dreadfully wrong,I think it is far better a "Christian" doubt their Salvation and re-examine their own heart because God Certainly knows their heart .....without having a Blessed Assurance that leaves no room for "doubt" because that man is FILLED with Faith then something is not right,& having that kind of FAITH does produce good works........its not the works that Saves a man,it is Gods Grace ......having no works is having no Faith.......imo        God Bless<kwik

Because it is a doctrine of Salvation through works.

Counting and keeping track of all my sins and then confessing and repenting of them all is an impossible task.. it's hard work.

The true believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them and He convicts us of sin and guides us into repentance daily.

It's by His work in us that we walk our daily lives... the work of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit is ever-present in the

believer's life. And Scripture makes this clear. We pray without ceasing and our sins are ever-present before us.

The seeds that fall on "bad soil" will sprout and show signs of life (in Christ) but eventually it's realized that there is no

significant growth in them... these are those that often act like Christians and even seem like Christians, but have no real

depth of root. What they are not, is Christians who fall out of favor with God and somehow give-up Salvation. They didn't

mature.

Scripture is clear that none are snatched away from God, that He finishes the work that He starts and that Salvation is eternally

given to the ones that truly turn themselves over to Christ as Lord. Christians don't reject God, ever... they have Him living within

themselves and are internally changed by the process. That would be like saying I'm choosing to change my gender or my species.

We are born-anew and there's no reversal process for that.

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38 minutes ago, Jeff2 said:

 While it is a fact that there are many who wear the name of Christian are not really believers at all, this does not prove that those who defect from the faith were never genuine in the estimate of their salvation. The context of the verse in question is dealing with the false teachers who had infiltrated the church in which John is writing to. They wore the label "Christian," but it was the Gnostic version of Christianity.

No one can deny that there is such a thing of people being "members" on a human level, and not "members" a spiritual level within the Church. But nothing within the passage states that they were never genuine Christians to begin with, but "They were not of us," states that they were not in sympathy with the Church at the time of their withdrawal. It does not signify that they were never at any time, genuine Christians. The fact that there are withered and fruitless branches now in the true vine (John 15:2) does not prove that those branches were never alive, but, rather, it proves their former life.

To say "If you ever fall away from the faith, then you were never in the faith," is the same nonsense as saying, "If I ever leave Idaho, then I was never in Idaho."

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

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13 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Nothing shall separate "us" believers, from the love of God. Of course, you know it says nothing about salvation.

Context, once again... is that they were being killed all the day long. People would suggest that persecution is proof that God has abandoned you. Paul says otherwise.

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