The tares among the wheat here

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, JoshuasonFlower said:

 

Romans 2:14-15

Are you saying there was no law of God in Abraham's time?

That passage is an example of Paul's use of an imaginary Jewish interlocutor to answer Jewish objections to the Gospel of grace. It was a common rhetorical device at that time.

  I am not saying there was no law of God in Abraham's time, but it was not the Mosaic law. 

[Reinitin]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

Very good points. That was one of the things I been trying to say. You can be in error thinking your walking right but does not mean your not in the true faith. I think God was inspiring this post. I needed someone to afirm what I was saying.

Yes. We are in Christ and Christ is in us. Our lord never leaves us or forsakes us. He left so he could sit down at the right hand of the Father and send us His Spirit. Which is better for us then him here in the flesh with us.

Its not like a swivel chair where God gets mad at us and turns his face from us then we struggle to make ourself acceptable so he comes back around pleased with us. We have been promised he will not leave us or forsake us.

The Lord is seated and in collosians it basically tells us He is Grace and is Truth. We are in him which being in Christ  is being in the will of God. You dont jump in and out of the will of God sometimes his will is to let us see how nasty our flesh can be so we reject its councel and become heavely minded. Sometimes he has some pretty tough conversations with us but that is not rejecting us, Is it? We mess up but it isnt about us being perfect is it? Its about trusting him to hold on to us and complete the work he starts in us. To teach us, lead us, guide us, correct us, strengthen us, comfort us and let us know him and know our Father. Its believing He is able to save us and present us to Father in Him without spot or wrinkle. We cant stand before Father unless we are in Him. 

So if you actually know the truth (know Christ). It doesnt really matter what people think or say you have love for those seeking, those rebelling, those deceived cause He brought us into him because of who He is not because of who we are. 

Im sorry people were hurting each other and using the Lord or His Word for the excuse. You are right the flesh can do some really  mean stuff when its justifying itself or thinking it is doing what is right.

[Reinitin]

6 hours ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

You'll I pray understand when I say none of that which you say actually pertains to the martyred apostle Paul, nor Peter, nor the Gentiles , nor the Jews in scripture. Nor are the names you use for the apostles spelled properly. As is the case with the religious order that is the Jews.

i used one finger on a phone the mind can read words backward and with m8ssing vowels. Im sure you can make since of it if you try to understand what it means and ask the Holy Spirit for understanding or revelation to help me understand where i may be in error.  it is probably more fruit producing then reading to find fault in grammar and  spelling and start fruitless arrguments about redundant points.

PAUL and PETER were not perfect. We get to see in His WORD how the LORD humbled Paul and Peter's flesh and grew them in Spirit. We also see Paul and Peter Error and Jesus Correct them.

[Wayne222]

44 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Yes. We are in Christ and Christ is in us. Our lord never leaves us or forsakes us. He left so he could sit down at the right hand of the Father and send us His Spirit. Which is better for us then him here in the flesh with us.

Its not like a swivel chair where God gets mad at us and turns his face from us then we struggle to make ourself acceptable so he comes back around pleased with us. We have been promised he will not leave us or forsake us.

The Lord is seated and in collosians it basically tells us He is Grace and is Truth. We are in him which being in Christ  is being in the will of God. You dont jump in and out of the will of God sometimes his will is to let us see how nasty our flesh can be so we reject its councel and become heavely minded. Sometimes he has some pretty tough conversations with us but that is not rejecting us, Is it? We mess up but it isnt about us being perfect is it? Its about trusting him to hold on to us and complete the work he starts in us. To teach us, lead us, guide us, correct us, strengthen us, comfort us and let us know him and know our Father. Its believing He is able to save us and present us to Father in Him without spot or wrinkle. We cant stand before Father unless we are in Him. 

So if you actually know the truth (know Christ). It doesnt really matter what people think or say you have love for those seeking, those rebelling, those deceived cause He brought us into him because of who He is not because of who we are. 

Im sorry people were hurting each other and using the Lord or His Word for the excuse. You are right the flesh can do some really  mean stuff when its justifying itself or thinking it is doing what is right.

Thanks for your post. I feel God is speaking through you. I did feel hurt and down a bit that many people have left worthy who were Catholics. Some of them were spirit filled.  I had a struggle that nearly destroy my spiritual life. It was about being right in doctrine to be a true child of God. It took me such a long time to be sure I was in the faith and really saved. That the Father really had me in his hand. I am sure now and God lifted me up so I feel strongly about my place in his kingdom. I just want to help anyone who is feeling apart from our heavenly Father. And it was Catholics that really helped me so much. The book a story of my soul. And another book Elizabeth of the trinity. Anyway in those books I seen a love for Jesus and for the Father that touch me greatly. Elizabeth a Carmi lite was so deep into Paul writings on Ephesians.  A praise of his glory was her desire.  Which she took from Pauls writings. Therese was a Carmi lite too who said her vocation was love.  And she would serve God in a small way doing small things out of love for Jesus. Now some would say so what. They might in inply she not saved she's a Catholic so it means little. But John wrote He who loves dwells in God. And God dwells in him. She also said when she goes to the Father after she dies she will go with no merits of her own but she will go with all of the merits of Jesus. Anyway I learn much from your post. Your filled with his holy spirit and it shows in your posts.   Blessings to you.

[warrior12]

44 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

feel hurt and down a bit that many people have left worthy who were Catholics. Some of them were spirit filled.

Hi Wayne222.  Being sympathetic to Catholics is one thing, but here at worthy, i read in their statement of faith that the 66 book of the Bible is the inspired word of God.  Now when a Catholic poster, post things like praying to the dead and other  doctrines of the pontiff, then the believers here will have to address it, as it is not in the Bible that evangelicals read and study.    I myself do not judge or say for sure that a Catholic is saved or not, that is out of my jurisdiction , but if what they proclaim is not in the word, then off course there will be disagreement and words will go back and forth , with some people getting frustrated ect.  Believers are to test the spirits and any that does not matches up to the word we read has to be rejected, there is no way around that.   

I disagree with some here at worthy in the manner they reply to the Catholics when  posting and that is the onus of those people to correct themselves and have Christ like discussions.   But false or erroneous doctrines and statements cannot co-exist with what is believed and stated here in the statement of faith.   As the admin stated a few days ago, all is welcome here to have decent conversations and i support that.   

I  hope you don't see my reply as offensive as it is not my intention.  My intention is to show that there is a gulf between Catholics and evangelicals in beliefs and it is deep.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, the Christians in Rome were Gentiles and they did not come out of the law of Moses, so you are still not really addressing the points raised in Romans 4, namely that Abraham was justified by faith 25 years before circumcision and some 430 years before the Law was given.

I understand that we are justified by our faith in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior, that's why we call him our Savior. 

To my person I give all the honor to him in this matter. 

I understand Paul's teaching on justification, and I do not strive to earn what is already inputted to me by faith in Jesus Christ, neither I try to maintain it or hold it not to leave me. 

Even if someone does not know that and tries to earn what already has,  the truth is at the end when we die, it matter that Jesus Christ is the Judge and he knows that we have not reject him, but we have believe in him. 

JESUS wants us to keep proclaiming and give his  children the peace that comes with understanding this truth.

 I see that you are a strong advocate of this truth, and I am glad to come across brothers like you. 

About Abraham I never doubted that he was not justified by faith twenty five years before the sircoumsission. 

(I am thinking how about if he had disobey God, regarding the sircoumsission and Issac,s offering, would he still remain justified),

(As with Moses we see that the Lord seek his death, because his wife did not let him sircoumsize his son), 

If somehow I have misled you in this matter, it was not my intention to do that. 

Only I tried to distinguish Abraham's justification, with our justification. 

He lived in a different time, and we live under the redemption of Jesus Christ. 

He was promised the earthly promise Land, as his inheritance in which he was a shorejourner, and we have the Heavens as our inheritance. 

Our Patriarch Jesus Christ went there first, and we do not have to go to war and kill and uproot other nations. 

We have nothing to envy from Abraham, and his blessings, and his sorrows. 

Abraham was not very happy to see many of his offsprings excluded, with not fault of their own, and what about the rest of the world, he must have thought about that. 

And what about himself self, when he understood that at the time of his death he will be separated from his God. 

But as JESUS said, Abraham was comforted in those matters , and he had come to understand about the coming of the CHRIST, that the CHRIST  will bring an end to his complaints, and he will not forget him down there, but he will take him out  from there together with his descendants, and he will not take them back to the eartly Promise Land, but to the CHRIST inheritance the Heavenly one. 

When someone has been in the Heavenly place, and without the earthly body, there is no more longing for the earthly , when we are in the earthly life, we have a longing for the Heavenly.

With respect for other peoples understanding, I do not mean to start some new discussion about these matters.

I just let you know how I think about these matters. 

I believe JESUS is stuck on the Throne in Heaven, till everything is subjected under his feet, and then give everything to God, as Paul said. 

JESUS said he is with us now. 

Where two or three gather together I will be with you always. 

We understand that even when we are alone, Jesus is with us , himself or through the Holy Spirit.

And he is helping us to rain in this life together with him. 

 

 

 

[Wayne222]

14 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Hi Wayne222.  Being sympathetic to Catholics is one thing, but here at worthy, i read in their statement of faith that the 66 book of the Bible is the inspired word of God.  Now when a Catholic poster, post things like praying to the dead and other  doctrines of the pontiff, then the believers here will have to address it, as it is not in the Bible that evangelicals read and study.    I myself do not judge or say for sure that a Catholic is saved or not, that is out of my jurisdiction , but if what they proclaim is not in the word, then off course there will be disagreement and words will go back and forth , with some people getting frustrated ect.  Believers are to test the spirits and any that does not matches up to the word we read has to be rejected, there is no way around that.   

I disagree with some here at worthy in the manner they reply to the Catholics when  posting and that is the onus of those people to correct themselves and have Christ like discussions.   But false or erroneous doctrines and statements cannot co-exist with what is believed and stated here in the statement of faith.   As the admin stated a few days ago, all is welcome here to have decent conversations and i support that.   

I  hope you don't see my reply as offensive as it is not my intention.  My intention is to show that there is a gulf between Catholics and evangelicals in beliefs and it is deep.

Well John said test the spirits. He wrote if anyone denies christ came in the flesh he is not of God. If anyone confesses Jesus as coming in the flesh is of God. Catholics do confess and believe this statement.  We have to take it for what it is. That is the test, not perfect doctrine or lack of errors. If anyone loves he dwells in God and God dwells in him. Is another statement of Apostle John. Those are the tests.

[warrior12]

12 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

Well John said test the spirits. He wrote if anyone denies christ came in the flesh he is not of God. If anyone confesses Jesus as coming in the flesh is of God. Catholics do confess and believe this statement.  We have to take it for what it is. That is the test, not perfect doctrine or lack of errors. If anyone loves he dwells in God and God dwells in him. Is another statement of Apostle John. Those are the tests.

Well, is it not the reason for the genesis of the protestant beliefs  and thus distancing from the Catholic church and it's dogmas.   In life and faith, we have to make choices and protestants have made theirs, thus the reason the gulf and no reconciliation with teachings  that is not in the word that the protestants use as their study of Gods word.   Ok, then, as you said, they believe that Jesus is God, then they can continue in their way of worship.   The protestant Bible does not teach their doctrines and therefore the comparability cannot exist.  As you said, it is just the way it is. 

Does not mean protestant has hate or malice towards Catholics, far from it, at least from me.  But worship is an act that is of utmost importance and the two is not compatible, therefore the road for co-existence as believers in worship cannot exist, at least with me.

[Reinitin]

2 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Thanks for your post. I feel God is speaking through you. I did feel hurt and down a bit that many people have left worthy who were Catholics. Some of them were spirit filled.  I had a struggle that nearly destroy my spiritual life. It was about being right in doctrine to be a true child of God. It took me such a long time to be sure I was in the faith and really saved. That the Father really had me in his hand. I am sure now and God lifted me up so I feel strongly about my place in his kingdom. I just want to help anyone who is feeling apart from our heavenly Father. And it was Catholics that really helped me so much. The book a story of my soul. And another book Elizabeth of the trinity. Anyway in those books I seen a love for Jesus and for the Father that touch me greatly. Elizabeth a Carmi lite was so deep into Paul writings on Ephesians.  A praise of his glory was her desire.  Which she took from Pauls writings. Therese was a Carmi lite too who said her vocation was love.  And she would serve God in a small way doing small things out of love for Jesus. Now some would say so what. They might in inply she not saved she's a Catholic so it means little. But John wrote He who loves dwells in God. And God dwells in him. She also said when she goes to the Father after she dies she will go with no merits of her own but she will go with all of the merits of Jesus. Anyway I learn much from your post. Your filled with his holy spirit and it shows in your posts.   Blessings to you.

Blessings to you. The Lord uses all kinds of things to teach us. 

We love because he first loved us. Even this love that sets us apart is given to us through Christ. 

[JoshuasonFlower]

12 hours ago, Reinitin said:

i used one finger on a phone the mind can read words backward and with m8ssing vowels. Im sure you can make since of it if you try to understand what it means and ask the Holy Spirit for understanding or revelation to help me understand where i may be in error.  it is probably more fruit producing then reading to find fault in grammar and  spelling and start fruitless arrguments about redundant points.

PAUL and PETER were not perfect. We get to see in His WORD how the LORD humbled Paul and Peter's flesh and grew them in Spirit. We also see Paul and Peter Error and Jesus Correct them.

I didn't mean to offend. Which is why I said at the beginning of my remarks that I pray for your understanding.

Your observation is on point in that it is not fruit producing to find fault with the Christians here due to the opinion of some who think they're entitled. This entire thread from the title inviting attention to it is something I can understand now happening as that which formerly as someone recalled, led the Catholic members of this community to leave.
The title is a direct communication against a new level of membership here. That Catholics departed appears to give incentive to have another identity of Christian follow. Is this type thread how it started against the Catholics? If so, what is the fruit of the spirit that pursues a new group to ostracize? Maybe the tare is what sprouts in the field first. Know them by their fruits was the warning in scripture.

Christians are suppose to work together in community. Upholding the word of God, and each other, in the spirit and same love as Christ has for his church.

Christ seated himself among the outcasts in society. He sought out the unclean, the persecuted, the untouchables. His own disciples took issue with that and confronted him about it and he informed them of his deep and abiding love and purpose.

I've read over this forum and others. And there appears to be arisen an intention to divide, not bond the community of Christ together. To say to those who are identified in those remarks with that purpose and who stand to read that that they are not fit to be here. Because they are not one of us.

What purpose is there to sew discord?  What fruit is wrought for the effort expended?

The Catholics left due to that? Who's intended to be next? What effort is purposed to insure there is a next? And how would that occur but for more than one opinion thinking there is deservedly a Christian among us worthy of being next? 

Rather than participate in sewing discord into the fabric of Christ's church joining with that which initiated the weave why don't we rebuff that intention by being Christ like in our example of his love? Jesus was sent to save the whole world from its sins. What example are we if we identify one group among our own as unworthy of being in his covenant due to our opinion of what that covenant means to them.

The teachings of Jesus are I believe something to reflect upon when encountering that. Because if it is a matter of sameness, I think it wise to recall that Christianity is not the religion of Jesus.

It is the religion about Jesus. Judaism was the religion of Jesus.  Therefore, when ridicule is produced repeatedly to say any Christian is not truly in Christ because of their manner of worship making them unqualified to be so named, I believe it wise to remember that about Christianity that the Christians follow. And the Judaism that our Lord and Savior followed.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by JoshuasonFlower