church

[JohnD]

It is prophetic of the antichrist, David numbering the people.

[JoshuasonFlower]

23 hours ago, Yowm said:

On the surface at least, that sounds very deceptive on the leaders part. I wouldn't have stayed two seconds.

The Gospel should never be spread through deceptive means.

It was what I'd call sprang on the members in a very deceptive way. Many of us who did leave don't believe that former place is spreading the Gospel at all. Otherwise, the elders wouldn't have been afraid of calling a sin sin when it came to the homosexual community.

 

[JoshuasonFlower]

On 4/15/2017 at 4:00 PM, Spock said:

Clear as a windex cleaned glass pane. 

Im not surprised....this is the way the "church" seems to be heading, right?  It seems in the name of love and acceptance, righteousness and denying the lust of the flesh is being set aside. 

Now I know homosexuality is not one of the Ten Commandments nor is it one of the seven things that God hates according to Proverbs 6:

16There are six things the Lord hates,

seven that are detestable to him:

17haughty eyes,

a lying tongue,

hands that shed innocent blood,

18a heart that devises wicked schemes,

feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19a false witness who pours out lies

and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

 

but.......it is pretty clear to me, that God just doesn't wish for Joe to have sex with Susie*** but that he also wishes for Joe not to have sex with Michael either. Therefore, shepherds should not encourage either behavior that violates Gods written will.  If this means anything to you Joshua, you did the right thing to "flee immorality! 

*** does not apply if Susie is Joe's wife

I think a number of those apply as pertains to my former church. First that comes to mind is wicked schemes. The elders decided to OK this transition without having a church meeting of the membership and the leadership to discuss.

The false witness that pours out lies I would say is also applicable. Being the pastor is to be held to higher account at the judgment, he's now testified that homosexuality is not a sin with this new policy in practice. That's bearing false witness, lying, as to what the scriptures actually say.

And his and the elders actions did certainly sir up conflict in our church community. In fact the first gay wedding he presided over made his testimony as one worthy of the title pastor a lie. He's responsible to lead people to the word that will inspire them to save themselves from their sins. Not lead people to revel in the sins that will damn them for all time.

His wife is in process of filing for divorce. The lawyer she's using is a friend of mine who departed the church shortly after I did. She retained him because they'd been friends for years. She considers her husband to have turned atheist now and she believes that gives her the right to break the covenant of marriage she had with him.

I believe he's going to lose it all besides his soul if he doesn't wake up. Sadder still is that the elders who should know better follow rather than lead.

 

[LovelyJoni]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, ejected said:

Simple. The ecclesia falsely called 'church' is out of order. Search your NT. The modern church with a tithe collecting pastor with a paying audience is not there.

'they teach as doctrines the commandments of men.' 'Their traditions making void the word of God'. 

Teaching man made law that places the folks under a curse.

All this quenches the Spirit, killing love, natural affection, and gratitude. 

So now you know. Better off alone with truth than with hundreds with error. 

 

The Lord is saving people everyday and some of them He's calling to Pastor a church like you describe and part of that entails collecting tithes and offerings. I'm a member of a church like that and it's also full of the Holy Spirit. Our Pastor keeps His focus on presenting the gospel to the lost as well as helping us mature in our walk with the Lord. We just finished our Easter cantata (My Savior, My God) and 14 people were saved. You could feel the Holy Spirit so strong in our church and it's amazing how the Lord used that drama to convict sinners and draw them to Himself. And it cost a good bit of money to pay for all of that but that was not our focus. Just like Jesus our focus was on the lost.

[Neighbor]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:56 PM, Wayne222 said:

Did anyone ever feel like you were not really in fellowship at there church. Or not connected even through you tried to be friends with members.                             I felt that in some of the churches.  The best one was Calvary Chapel in NJ years ago. I felt they cared for each other.                                                        I went to a Baptist Church and not too many people talked to me.                        I once went to the local kingdom hall of the JW. Just out of curiosity to see how they worship. I knew they were outside the faith .I felt so loved and everyone was super nice. They wanted to do so much.                                                   But I rather be alone and with christ then be with a false church. I wonder why some many churches don't show God's love.            

 

 

 

Hi, Got to reading the posts here. And then it struck me, how many times I have had closing up duty after worship services. It is often a full hour by the time everyone has left the  Sanctuary  never mind the full building.  We are sometimes tempted to  "remind" people to leave by turning out some of the lights, or hey let's turn the air conditioning off, but as I look around amongst the general population  fellowshipping for what seems forever, can I identify if there is a serious issue being discussed, one where someone is having a bad time of it and needs help? No I can't! And so we are mindful that  our dinner will keep,  and I turn to prayer for those fellowshipping, or whatever they may need be discussing, to have the lead of the Holy Spirit. 

And of things to do  around a church, things to get involved in, why on Sunday alone there are: parking attendants- mostly our high schoolers, doors greeters, ushers, sound crew, lights crew, video crew, live streaming crew, choir, praise singers,  orchestra,  an MC, an expositor, elders available for counseling, security, bus and  golf cart drivers, Sunday school classes leaders, nursery rooms  attendants, custodial and emergency custodial duties to cover, translators for Spanish language simulcast, signers for the deaf, Children's ministries leaders, youth leaders and the CD distribution ministry workers.

And yet,  we will read of someone that visited and complained to us in a letter on online afterward that they thought the church was mostly old people, just sitting in pews.

 Also, for Sunday the text of the prayers and messages and the outline of the service must be done by mid Friday so that the translators and signers and graphics crews have time to put  there own  work together for Sunday.

All that is not close to being the half of it for a week or a month of activities, special seasonal events, and missions activity needs, plus there is the school K-12. That is  an whole other ballgame going on. If there was a wedding or funeral on Saturday we were working Saturday evening to clean  reassemble and prepare the sanctuary and classrooms for Sunday.  We do that  all week long too for the various classes and missions that go on all week.

It has been my privilege to serve at such a church and school for 15 years. Now at 73 I am backing off some, simply working at church, and  maybe taking a leave of absence for the summer with my new bride and going on a honeymoon.

There is a whole new crop of younger individuals, families and kids, coming up and tending things very well. Some of it is awsome to even know of, our God is faithful to His own, and  always providing the perfect portion for our needs. For even as we struggle, and we do, He teaches us, and we stretch in awareness of how awesome He is.

So, without fellowship, and feeling alone? Likely not totally the  church's problem so much as an individual's problem getting started at a body of Christ. Persevere, work at it, don't pine and pity self, keep at it- (  I have already shared  that I have had the same issues of feeling alone, of not having fellowship ).

Why I had to fill out the little cards in the pew six weeks, and then had to phone the church before I heard from the administrative pastor about the issue and question I had. I didn't know the  Sunday weekly program had a note on it, "Help Wanted". They were short handed, and couldn't properly tend the issue I had questioned. If my question had been answered the first week I never would have made that call. I never  would have learned of a job that needed filling-one that I was uniquely qualified  for, and never would have taken it  for a few months  now turned into 15 years after my first short lived retirement.

I share somewhat hesitantly of all the personal stuff, but I figure also maybe it adds some credibility to my argument that  if one does not find fellowship, does not find ministry to work in at church, that  it may not be the church that is at fault. It may be it is not God's timing for the individual. Or, it may be that the individual is still running from God, not really ready to be turned about and to serving one another as saints in Christ, brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus. Maybe none of that is the case, but how about finding out through perseverance rather than retreating?

Saints are to prepare for service to their Lord Jesus. Preparation can be hard work, and it meets resistance from within self,  as well as outwardly from Satan and demons. Overcome through perseverance, prayer, thinking, and the hard work of doing. Never sit, never pity. Instead do. Find something to do at your local body of Christ.

[ravindran]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:56 PM, Wayne222 said:

Did anyone ever feel like you were not really in fellowship at there church. Or not connected even through you tried to be friends with members.                             I felt that in some of the churches.  The best one was Calvary Chapel in NJ years ago. I felt they cared for each other.                                                        I went to a Baptist Church and not too many people talked to me.                        I once went to the local kingdom hall of the JW. Just out of curiosity to see how they worship. I knew they were outside the faith .I felt so loved and everyone was super nice. They wanted to do so much.                                                   But I rather be alone and with christ then be with a false church. I wonder why some many churches don't show God's love.            

 

 

 

Does not sound surprising. At the end of day, people at Church are all sinners in need of God's grace. Church is not a bunch of "perfect" people. Church is a place for imperfect people, who have understood their imperfectness and knows they can do nothing about it apart from Jesus Christ. As you get more involved in Church activities (deacon, board member, etc) you would see more politics and you would feel that Church is more of an organization than fellowship! That's what man has made Church to be. An organization and not a place of fellowship. Does that mean going to Church is bad? Let it be the last thing. In short, the point is - all churches would have some shortcoming. Pray and see where Lord wants you to be rather than the circumstances.

I wouldn't call a Church as false Church just because of a few rude people. It would be teaching which would define whether a Church is false or not.

[bryan]

There are some great stories and comments here with many good points.  There also seems to be an underlying sentiment that if you haven't found fellowship at the churches you've tried out, the problem is likely with you.   

Picture someone 18 to 25 looking for answers about Christianity.  They come to church with hard questions.  Do we expect them to spend a year attending services, donating tithes, and volunteering before they are viewed as 'full members' and worthy of having someone actually listen?   They don't wait, of course, and write off church as not useful.

This sounds extreme, but I've heard specific cases of this with several friends.   It concerns me here that there seems to be a view that while many churches have older congregations with fewer members each year, they generally aren't willing to look at their practices and see if anything needs adjustment or if new approaches might help.  All need to be based on scripture, but looking at how far we've gone from home churches in the first few hundred years after Christ  to the model of churches now, we've already created so many artificial processes and social dynamics that someone from 100AD would likely think we're not Christian at all.

What could churches do better to foster fellowship?  What do they do that makes it harder for that to happen?

[ricky]

Haven't read the whole thread, so I am just answering the OP. There have been times where I have felt disconnected with my old church, sometimes this was because of geographical distance from where the church met, and not really having a connection with the area. This was a little Baptist church in a very rural area, we knew the pastor but it was 20 miles away from our home. The people all knew each other very well over a long number of year. Many were farmers and it seemed like all the men were into hunting and such (that isn't me). I am not saying they were bad people, far from it. However there was a real disconnect. We only stayed in that church about 9 months before our currant church started up. 

We are blessed to be a part of the new church there is a very real spiritual connection with the people there, who we have known for years and is much closer to home.

 

[Wayne222]

13 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Got to reading the posts here. And then it struck me, how many times I have had closing up duty after worship services. It is often a full hour by the time everyone has left the  Sanctuary  never mind the full building.  We are sometimes tempted to  "remind" people to leave by turning out some of the lights, or hey let's turn the air conditioning off, but as I look around amongst the general population  fellowshipping for what seems forever, can I identify if there is a serious issue being discussed, one where someone is having a bad time of it and needs help? No I can't! And so we are mindful that  our dinner will keep,  and I turn to prayer for those fellowshipping, or whatever they may need be discussing, to have the lead of the Holy Spirit. 

And of things to do  around a church, things to get involved in, why on Sunday alone there are: parking attendants- mostly our high schoolers, doors greeters, ushers, sound crew, lights crew, video crew, live streaming crew, choir, praise singers,  orchestra,  an MC, an expositor, elders available for counseling, security, bus and  golf cart drivers, Sunday school classes leaders, nursery rooms  attendants, custodial and emergency custodial duties to cover, translators for Spanish language simulcast, signers for the deaf, Children's ministries leaders, youth leaders and the CD distribution ministry workers.

And yet,  we will read of someone that visited and complained to us in a letter on online afterward that they thought the church was mostly old people, just sitting in pews.

 Also, for Sunday the text of the prayers and messages and the outline of the service must be done by mid Friday so that the translators and signers and graphics crews have time to put  there own  work together for Sunday.

All that is not close to being the half of it for a week or a month of activities, special seasonal events, and missions activity needs, plus there is the school K-12. That is  an whole other ballgame going on. If there was a wedding or funeral on Saturday we were working Saturday evening to clean  reassemble and prepare the sanctuary and classrooms for Sunday.  We do that  all week long too for the various classes and missions that go on all week.

It has been my privilege to serve at such a church and school for 15 years. Now at 73 I am backing off some, simply working at church, and  maybe taking a leave of absence for the summer with my new bride and going on a honeymoon.

There is a whole new crop of younger individuals, families and kids, coming up and tending things very well. Some of it is awsome to even know of, our God is faithful to His own, and  always providing the perfect portion for our needs. For even as we struggle, and we do, He teaches us, and we stretch in awareness of how awesome He is.

So, without fellowship, and feeling alone? Likely not totally the  church's problem so much as an individual's problem getting started at a body of Christ. Persevere, work at it, don't pine and pity self, keep at it- (  I have already shared  that I have had the same issues of feeling alone, of not having fellowship ).

Why I had to fill out the little cards in the pew six weeks, and then had to phone the church before I heard from the administrative pastor about the issue and question I had. I didn't know the  Sunday weekly program had a note on it, "Help Wanted". They were short handed, and couldn't properly tend the issue I had questioned. If my question had been answered the first week I never would have made that call. I never  would have learned of a job that needed filling-one that I was uniquely qualified  for, and never would have taken it  for a few months  now turned into 15 years after my first short lived retirement.

I share somewhat hesitantly of all the personal stuff, but I figure also maybe it adds some credibility to my argument that  if one does not find fellowship, does not find ministry to work in at church, that  it may not be the church that is at fault. It may be it is not God's timing for the individual. Or, it may be that the individual is still running from God, not really ready to be turned about and to serving one another as saints in Christ, brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus. Maybe none of that is the case, but how about finding out through perseverance rather than retreating?

Saints are to prepare for service to their Lord Jesus. Preparation can be hard work, and it meets resistance from within self,  as well as outwardly from Satan and demons. Overcome through perseverance, prayer, thinking, and the hard work of doing. Never sit, never pity. Instead do. Find something to do at your local body of Christ.

Nice post and good work. Myself I don't pity or feel sorry for anything. I feel very joyful in the lord. I was wondering if anyone had that experience. I had good fellowship for years at the world wide church of God.  I had great fellowship at Calvary Chapel.  Some non fellowship at a few other churchs.  I used to go to prayer meetings at a church of christ and the fellowship was full of God's love. Maybe in my post I was focus on the negative.  But you serve God well.

[RustyAngeL]

On 4/15/2017 at 11:56 AM, Wayne222 said:

Did anyone ever feel like you were not really in fellowship at there church. Or not connected even through you tried to be friends with members.                             I felt that in some of the churches.  The best one was Calvary Chapel in NJ years ago. I felt they cared for each other.                                                        I went to a Baptist Church and not too many people talked to me.                        I once went to the local kingdom hall of the JW. Just out of curiosity to see how they worship. I knew they were outside the faith .I felt so loved and everyone was super nice. They wanted to do so much.                                                   But I rather be alone and with christ then be with a false church. I wonder why some many churches don't show God's love.            

 

 

 

I go to a Calvary Chapel too, I love it.