tongues

[OneLight]

16 minutes ago, Allroses48 said:

I believe the context of Corinthians is that he was talking to the Christians in Corinth, not the Christians today. I think when we take passages out of context like this, it creates confusion and division. Some of the messages of his epistle applies to us but I believe certain issues like speaking in tongues, miraculous healing, raising people from the dead are only things Christ or his apostles/disciples were able to do. 

So, you believe some scripture is closed to today's believers?  Where do you find that in scripture?  When Paul states that the Holy Spirit will give gifts as He wills, you don't believe him?  Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is not fulfilling scripture today, but has decided not to apply all of His word? 

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

[Guest]

I don't believe he was speaking to today's Christians...He was specifically addressing Corinth. We can apply his teachings but the miracle stuff to my knowledge was strictly when the holy spirit descended on the apostles and disciples. Not us. 

[NOONE7]

Tongues is such an incredible gift.

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Allroses48 said:

I believe the context of Corinthians is that he was talking to the Christians in Corinth, not the Christians today. I think when we take passages out of context like this, it creates confusion and division. Some of the messages of his epistle applies to us but I believe certain issues like speaking in tongues, miraculous healing, raising people from the dead are only things Christ or his apostles/disciples were able to do. 

You do make a valid point in my opinion. 

Not everybody considers the culture of when these authors wrote and not everyone considers LETTERS to a specific church regarding their problems as being for all churches for all time for every culture. 

I know some think that to be the case but I don't.  There are clearly things Paul wrote in his letters that don't apply to today. I'm not here to discuss them all and I haven't really made a list, but they are there. Head covering is first that comes to the top of my head. 

As for tongues though......I wouldn't say they are limited to just one culture, one time. I wouldn't say anything. Mind you, I don't speak in tongues and quite frankly don't want to and don't want to be around someone who does speak in tongues. I used to go to a church where some dude got up, spoke in tongues, and it just so happened the pastor was the only one who could interpret it and it just seemed hokey to me. He even spoke in the King James language when interpreting. Most of the messages were pretty generic....you don't even need someone speaking in tongues to give those messages. Sorry for being so critical, but my spirit "told me" this is a joke, so I left.  

[OneLight]

6 hours ago, Allroses48 said:

I don't believe he was speaking to today's Christians...He was specifically addressing Corinth. We can apply his teachings but the miracle stuff to my knowledge was strictly when the holy spirit descended on the apostles and disciples. Not us. 

Sure is one way to miss out on any gift the Holy Spirit may want to give you.  Doubt is not of God, faith is.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

You do make a valid point in my opinion. 

Not everybody considers the culture of when these authors wrote and not everyone considers LETTERS to a specific church regarding their problems as being for all churches for all time for every culture. 

I know some think that to be the case but I don't.  There are clearly things Paul wrote in his letters that don't apply to today. I'm not here to discuss them all and I haven't really made a list, but they are there. Head covering is first that comes to the top of my head. 

As for tongues though......I wouldn't say they are limited to just one culture, one time. I wouldn't say anything. Mind you, I don't speak in tongues and quite frankly don't want to and don't want to be around someone who does speak in tongues. I used to go to a church where some dude got up, spoke in tongues, and it just so happened the pastor was the only one who could interpret it and it just seemed hokey to me. He even spoke in the King James language when interpreting. Most of the messages were pretty generic....you don't even need someone speaking in tongues to give those messages. Sorry for being so critical, but my spirit "told me" this is a joke, so I left.  

Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I see nothing in scripture that tells me that the Holy Spirit will do this for these people and that for those, and something else for the rest.  Learn to trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not onto your own understanding!

[Spock]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I see nothing in scripture that tells me that the Holy Spirit will do this for these people and that for those, and something else for the rest.  Learn to trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not onto your own understanding!

When that was written, Pauls letters were probably not even written . I'm sure Paul was referencing the OT. 

But, if you want to believe all of Pauls letters are for every culture for all time, fine by me.  A man has to follow his conscience.  We discussed this in that women's thread, discussing whether women can be ministers too.  Those who hold fast to every word of Pauls letters to specific churches being for all time for every church definitely should not attend a church with a woman elder or minister. That is your call. I don't see things that way and yet I have the HS living in me too. Those who believe tongues have passed away probably should attend a church where people are speaking in tongues, right? 

We all need to be tolerant of those who interpret things differently in the minor issues, right? I consider tongues to be a minor issue. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Spock

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

When that was written, Pauls letters were probably not even written . I'm sure Paul was referencing the OT. 

But, if you want to believe all of Pauls letters are for every culture for all time, fine by me.  A man has to follow his conscience.  We discussed this in that women's thread, discussing whether women can be ministers too.  Those who hold fast to every word of Pauls letters to specific churches being for all time for every church definitely should not attend a church with a woman elder or minister. That is your call. I don't see things that way and yet I have the HS living in me too. Those who believe tongues have passed away probably should attend a church where people are speaking in tongues, right? 

We all need to be tolerant of those who interpret things differently in the minor issues, right? I consider tongues to be a minor issue. 

You would be incorrect in your assessment of when scripture was written.  Here is just one example of when the books were written.  There are many sites the echo the same time frame.

Old Testament

Job--Unknown
Genesis--1445-1405 B.C.
Exodus --1445-1405 B.C.
Leviticus --1445-1405 B.C.
Numbers--1445-1405 B.C.
Deuteronomy--1445-1405 B.C.
Psalms--1410-450 B.C.
Joshua--1405-1385 B.C.
Judges--ca. 1043 B.C.
Ruth--ca. 1030-1010 B.C.
Song of Solomon--971-965 B.C.
Proverbs--ca. 971-686 B.C.
Ecclesiastes--940-931 B.C.
1 Samuel--931-722 B.C.
2 Samuel--931-722 B.C.
Obadiah--850-840 B.C.
Joel--835-796 B.C.
Jonah--ca. 775 B.C.
Amos--ca. 750 B.C.
Hosea--750-710 B.C.
Micah--735-710 B.C.
Isaiah--700-681 B.C.
Nahum--ca. 650 B.C.
Zephaniah--635-625 B.C.
Habakkuk--615-605 B.C.
Ezekiel--590-570 B.C.
Lamentations--586 B.C.
Jeremiah--586-570 B.C.
1 Kings--561-538 B.C.
2 Kings--561-538 B.C.
Daniel 536-530 B.C.
Haggai--ca. 520 B.C.
Zechariah--480-470 B.C.
Ezra--457-444 B.C.
1 Chronicles--450-430 B.C.
2 Chronicles--450-430 B.C.
Esther--450-331 B.C.
Malachi--433-424 B.C.
Nehemiah--424-400 B.C.

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

I am tolerant with those who disagree with me, yet when it comes to the gifts, not so much.  Imagine what this body would be like if everyone had the faith we are supposed to have, not just for salvation, but for His complete will in our lives.  People who do not believe the gifts are for today not only rob themselves of something special being done through them, but they also rob the rest of the world by not allowing the Holy Spirit to work through them in such a manner.

[Spock]

4 minutes ago, OneLight said:

You would be incorrect in your assessment of when scripture was written.  Here is just one example of when the books were written.  There are many sites the echo the same time frame.

Old Testament

Job--Unknown
Genesis--1445-1405 B.C.
Exodus --1445-1405 B.C.
Leviticus --1445-1405 B.C.
Numbers--1445-1405 B.C.
Deuteronomy--1445-1405 B.C.
Psalms--1410-450 B.C.
Joshua--1405-1385 B.C.
Judges--ca. 1043 B.C.
Ruth--ca. 1030-1010 B.C.
Song of Solomon--971-965 B.C.
Proverbs--ca. 971-686 B.C.
Ecclesiastes--940-931 B.C.
1 Samuel--931-722 B.C.
2 Samuel--931-722 B.C.
Obadiah--850-840 B.C.
Joel--835-796 B.C.
Jonah--ca. 775 B.C.
Amos--ca. 750 B.C.
Hosea--750-710 B.C.
Micah--735-710 B.C.
Isaiah--700-681 B.C.
Nahum--ca. 650 B.C.
Zephaniah--635-625 B.C.
Habakkuk--615-605 B.C.
Ezekiel--590-570 B.C.
Lamentations--586 B.C.
Jeremiah--586-570 B.C.
1 Kings--561-538 B.C.
2 Kings--561-538 B.C.
Daniel 536-530 B.C.
Haggai--ca. 520 B.C.
Zechariah--480-470 B.C.
Ezra--457-444 B.C.
1 Chronicles--450-430 B.C.
2 Chronicles--450-430 B.C.
Esther--450-331 B.C.
Malachi--433-424 B.C.
Nehemiah--424-400 B.C.

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

I am tolerant with those who disagree with me, yet when it comes to the gifts, not so much.  Imagine what this body would be like if everyone had the faith we are supposed to have, not just for salvation, but for His complete will in our lives.  People who do not believe the gifts are for today not only rob themselves of something special being done through them, but they also rob the rest of the world by not allowing the Holy Spirit to work through them in such a manner.

Well, there are some pretty decent ministers out there who believe the gifts have ceased for today, they passed. John McArthur for one. 

Do you personally know of anyone who has the gift of miracles or healing?  I'm in my 60s, have been involved in countless number of churches and I have never seen that gift being used. Have you? 

But again, this is not a big deal for me. I can see it is for you. I guess it is up to the Lord to reveal his truth to us accordingly. 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Well, there are some pretty decent ministers out there who believe the gifts have ceased for today, they passed. John McArthur for one. 

Do you personally know of anyone who has the gift of miracles or healing?  I'm in my 60s, have been involved in countless number of churches and I have never seen that gift being used. Have you? 

But again, this is not a big deal for me. I can see it is for you. I guess it is up to the Lord to reveal his truth to us accordingly. 

Yes, as I do not believe miracles have to always be something like the growing back of an arm or the raising of the dead.  I see miracles in peoples lives in many other ways.  I also see healing take place in many ways.  You see, neither have to be a dramatic event to be one or the other.

I am also in my 60's and have seen such.  As I stated, when people do not believe that the Holy Spirit can depart them with gifts, they place Him in their little box, neatly defined by their theology.  As I said, this is their loss and the loss of those they know as they refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to use His gifts through them.   Do you remember the passage that instructs us not to quench the Holy Spirit?  This is one way He is quenched by the body.