OneLight

Does the Body of Christ rule on earth in the millennium?

14 posts in this topic

The title is: "Does the Body of Christ rule on earth in the millennium?"

 

This debate is between Shiloh357 and Marylin C  ONLY.  All other members are instructed  NOT  to post.  If you do, you will be banned from the thread and reprimanded for your participation.  There are more than enough forums for anyone to have their own discussion on an issue.

 

Marylin will argue that Jesus will rule and reign from Heaven during the millennium.

Shiloh357 will argue that Jesus will rule and reign from Earth during the millennium.

This is not a debate of who will reign with Christ, but from where.

 

The following are guidelines that need to be followed:

  • Be respectful of each other time.  Realize that debates are more thought out and a fast reply, more than likely, will not happen.  On the other side of this, if one of you will be away for over 24 hours, please notify the other that you will be away and will not be replying until you return.  This minimizes the anxiety while allowing time to put together a well thought out response.
  • Unless otherwise stated, a response is "expected" within 24 hours.  If a response is not made within a few days, and no explanation is given as to the reason for an absence, the debate will be seen as no argument and will be closed.
  • Either side may back out of a debate at any time.
  • When it is agreed by both parties, the debate can be closed at any time.
  • Please stay on focus.  You both are agreeing to a topic, so your replies need to pertain to the subject matter.  Sidetracking the debate will only degrades your response in the eyes of the readers, weakening your side of the argument.
  • It is advisable to focus on scripture when replying.  The use of other material is acceptable, but remember, Gods word carries the most authority, not mans beliefs.  If you do quote material, even scripture, you have to provide the book, chapter and verse of the bible, or the book, page and author of the other material.  If it is a website, a link to the page needs to accompany the quote, and only use material that clearly stated you can copy it.
  • No twisting or scripture or any other text is allowed.  It is possible to come out with a different understanding of what is read, but obvious twisting is also very evident and is not allowed.
  • Online etiquette is followed during debates.  All caps is like screaming at someone, as well as increased fonts.  All caps or larger fonts, while in bold increases the volume.  Adding color also increases the volume.  Any of these are seen as a disrespectful act toward the other and may be a reason to prematurely close the debate.  Both of you are mature adults and are expected to respond in such a manner.  Placing a word or phrase in bold, or underlining a word or sentence, is acceptable when adding emphasis to a section of a statement.
  • A straw-man argument is also seen in a negative light by those reading.  Please think through your words before posting.
  • If, for any reason, the statements from the other side are not clear, do not assume you understand, ask for clarity.  All too ofter arguments based on assumptions have caused discourse and are a waste of time.  There is nothing wrong in asking question for clarity,  In my book, asking for clarity shows respect for the poster.
  • Do not "read into" what the other has posted. 
  • Be sure you say what you want to say before posting.  Take the time you need to read through your replies many time to ensure your reply is as clear as possible.  Personally, I find it helpful to step back for a time, then return to a reply, reading it as if this was the first time ever reading it with no preconceived idea as to what the author is saying.  This allows me to see what is written in the same light any other person may see it, giving me the opportunity to correct any wording that is not clear, add something that was left out, or remove something I really didn't want to say.  Too often, hasty replies only lead to wishing you had said things differently and/or needs to be thoroughly explained/defended.
  • No rabbit trails or baiting.
  • Debates are not a court trial where one must win.  A debate is where each side provides evidence behind their belief to bring a deeper understanding as to why they believe the way they do.

To begin this debate, each debater will given the opportunity to provide an opening statement that clarifies from what position they will be starting from.  It has been decided that Marilyn will give the first opening statement.

 

Again, this debate is only between Marilyn and Shiloh357.  All other posts will be deleted.

 

Let the debate begin!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First I would like to thank the Moderators for setting this debate up & also to thank Shiloh for being willing to participate. He, as we know is very scholarly, yet I`m sure we`ll both learn more of God`s truths as we listen to the Holy Spirit and share of His word.

 

Now I believe it is important to know where the Body of Christ will rule in the millennium, for what we believe is where we are heading.

Thus I would like to present my reasons why I believe the Body of Christ does not rule on earth in the millennium. My premise is that the Body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ on His throne  (in heaven) -

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

`far above all,`

God...`seated Him (Christ) far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

 

Marilyn.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings all.   My position is that we will be with Jesus on earth during His millennial reign and I will endeavor to demonstrate this with  a copious amount of Scripture and to demonstrate that the Scripture passages being employed by Marilyn do not, in their literary context, speak to the issue for which she is using them. 

Looking forward to the debate.   Awaiting opening arguments from Marilyn.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are starting this debate over so it will follow a debate structure.

Marilyn, would you give us your opening arguments and SHiloh357 will follow.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I apologise Shiloh for slipping into teacher mode and going straight to my key points, instead of presenting my argument. The moderators have kindly deleted those and now we can start fresh.

 

So...I believe that the Body of Christ will not rule on the earth in the millennium. They are kingpriests with the Lord Jesus Christ who will rule from heaven. The Lord`s priesthood is of the order of Melchizedek, and that kingpriestly office is in the heavenly sanctuary.

Israel`s priesthood on earth in the millennium is of the order of Aaron, the Levites, and is separate from the kingly office. If Christ were on earth in the millennium He would not be a priest of the Aaronic order and thus not a priest in Israel during the millennium.

As the Body of Christ rules with the Lord Jesus Christ, we will also rule from heaven, with the Lord on His throne. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, the role of "kings and priests"  is a present state, not a future state for believers.  And there is nothing in Scripture about the Church serving as kings and priests in heaven during the Millennium.   There is no reference to believers in Scripture serving as kings and priests in Heaven in the heavenly sanctuary.

Ezekiel 40-48 teaches us that Jesus will be here on earth during the millennium and that He will be reigning from His throne in the fourth temple, the temple described in those nine chapters of Ezekiel.  The throne Jesus is to be seated on, is the throne of David, and that is always, without exception, an earthly throne.   In fact, if Jesus is not reigning in Israel, on the earth, on David's throne, He cannot fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies.   Part of Messianic prophecy is the earthly role of Messiah.   "Messiah" is an earthly title, the title given to a conquering king.   Jesus is THE Messiah of Israel and will have a physical kingdom on the earth, in order to fulfill all of the prophecies about Him that are yet to be fulfilled.

Jesus will reign as King on earth and will not be a Great High Priest.  That role will have ceased and He will not reign in Israel as Israel's Messiah in the Millennium.

We will not reigning jointly on Jesus throne in Heaven, as Jesus has no throne in Heaven.   When the Bible refers to God sitting on a throne or Jesus on a throne, those are anthropomorphisms.  Jesus cannot be seated at the right hand of the Father, because God the Father is an omnipresent Spirit and as such, has no "right hand."  God "seated" on a throne is simply a reference to His authority.  It is not referring to an actual throne like we see in pictures.   God is not physical and is non-corporeal, so He doesn't actually "sit."   Jesus' role in Heaven is not as a King, but as our Great High Priest and He is making intercession for us at this time. 

So the first thing that must be established is that Jesus will indeed, reign on earth.

 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you said Shiloh, Jesus is the Great High Priest now in the heavenly sanctuary.

`We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

However, He will also continue that ministry in the millennium and on into eternity.

As God the Father says to His Son -

`The LORD has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps. 110: 4)

Then the writer to the Hebrews states -

`Jesus....ever lives to make intercession....` (Heb. 7: 25)

Thus we see that the Lord Jesus Christ is an eternal priest who ministers in the true sanctuary and of the true tabernacle in heaven.

 

The earthly temple of Israel with its laws and ordinances are but a `copy and shadow` of the heavenly things.

`...priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For he said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” (Heb. 8: 4 & 5)

In the earthly temple that Ezekiel describes in ch. 40 - 48 (as you said) we see that God gives a description that Ezekiel has to write down for Israel.

`Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern.

And if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms, and all its laws.

Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them. This is the law o the temple; the whole area surrounding the mountaintop shall be most holy. Behold this is the law of the temple.` (Ez. 43: 10 - 12)

Thus we see described this earthly temple in Israel is but a `copy and shadow` of the heavenly true sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.

We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

This is where the Lord ministers forever as High Priest, as His Father appointed Him.`

`The LORD has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps. 110: 4

`Jesus....ever lives to make intercession....` (Heb. 7: 25)

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As you said Shiloh, Jesus is the Great High Priest now in the heavenly sanctuary.

`We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

However, He will also continue that ministry in the millennium and on into eternity.

As God the Father says to His Son -

`The LORD has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps. 110: 4)

Then the writer to the Hebrews states -

`Jesus....ever lives to make intercession....` (Heb. 7: 25)

Thus we see that the Lord Jesus Christ is an eternal priest who ministers in the true sanctuary and of the true tabernacle in heaven.

The problem is that "forever"   does not mean that this role will continue on into the dateless eternal future.   Jesus' role of Great High Priest is limited time-wise, as once the Church has been glorified, once we have received our glorified bodies and sin has been eradicated in the Church, there is no longer any need for us to have a Great High Priest to make intercession for us.  

The Hebrew word עוֹלָם  "olam"  as  "forever" is often limited to this current age.   This particular concept of forever doesn't mean what "forever" means in a purely English usage of the word.

In Heb.7:25 the word "ever"  is an adverb, πάντοτε (pantote) and simply means that he is continuously making intercession for us.  It  does not mean that this ministry will continue on into the dateless eternal future.

The ministry of the Great High Priest and Jesus millennial reign as Israel's Messiah are not concurrent roles. 
 

Quote

 

The earthly temple of Israel with its laws and ordinances are but a `copy and shadow` of the heavenly things.

`...priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For he said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” (Heb. 8: 4 & 5)

 

That applies to the original Tabernacle and the ministry of the original temple of Solomon.  The Temple in Ezekiel and the services that take place in it are not according to the Mosaic Law and do not follow the same pattern, if you study the Ezekiel 40-48 in depth.   It is a completely different system.

 

Quote

 

In the earthly temple that Ezekiel describes in ch. 40 - 48 (as you said) we see that God gives a description that Ezekiel has to write down for Israel.

`Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern.

And if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms, and all its laws.

Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them. This is the law o the temple; the whole area surrounding the mountaintop shall be most holy. Behold this is the law of the temple.` (Ez. 43: 10 - 12)

Thus we see described this earthly temple in Israel is but a `copy and shadow` of the heavenly true sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.

 

You're conflating the ministry of the original temple under the OT economy with the ministry of the temple in Ezekiel which will happen during the millennium on earth.    The throne Jesus will be reigning on will be in that Temple on earth. 

Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.  (Eze 43:1-7)

So this is an earthly temple that will have Jesus' throne from where He will reign in the midst of the Children of Israel during the millennium.  So it will be an earthly, millennial reign on earth.

Quote

 

We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

This is where the Lord ministers forever as High Priest, as His Father appointed Him.`

`The LORD has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps. 110: 4

`Jesus....ever lives to make intercession....` (Heb. 7: 25)

 

Again, those passages only apply to current ministry of Jesus' our Great High Priest, which is not a role that Jesus will minister in, into the dateless eternal future.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The problem is that "forever"   does not mean that this role will continue on into the dateless eternal future.   Jesus' role of Great High Priest is limited time-wise, as once the Church has been glorified, once we have received our glorified bodies and sin has been eradicated in the Church, there is no longer any need for us to have a Great High Priest to make intercession for us.  

The Hebrew word עוֹלָם  "olam"  as  "forever" is often limited to this current age.   This particular concept of forever doesn't mean what "forever" means in a purely English usage of the word.

In Heb.7:25 the word "ever"  is an adverb, πάντοτε (pantote) and simply means that he is continuously making intercession for us.  It  does not mean that this ministry will continue on into the dateless eternal future.

The ministry of the Great High Priest and Jesus millennial reign as Israel's Messiah are not concurrent roles.

 

Jesus` office of Great High Priest is emphasised at the present as He builds and matures the Body of Christ. However His priesthood does not stop or finish there, as you think Shiloh, for it continues on into eternity,

`Jesus...because He continues for ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.` (Heb. 7: 24)

The Greek word `aion`  means an age, perpetuity, (endless duration) eternal.

And the phrase `continues for ever,` reveals that the age, the perpetuity, continues on.

 

Christ`s priestly activities do not finish as you said, for you are limiting Christ`s great priestly activities to just the Church. Christ`s priesthood is a universal calling because Melchizedek, the type of Christ`s priesthood, was a high priest to the world. Before there were any priests in Israel, he was a priest of the most high God. Jesus Christ, after the order of Melchizedek, is a High Priest to the `world` not only to Israel.

`Then Melchizadek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God most high.` (Gen. 14: 18)

 

You are also limiting Christ`s priestly activities to just His sacrificial offering of Himself and His intercession. His sacrificial death was, however the basis for His ongoing priestly ministries.

`But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also mediator of a better covenant which was established on better promises.` (Heb. 8: 6)

These promises are to the Body of Christ, to Israel and to the nations of the world. They are fulfilled over time and into eternity. The Great High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ will continue for ever to `bless` His people in all areas of God`s great kingdom. And `blessing` another is a priestly activity. (Gen. 14: 19)

 

At present Christ`s kingship is held in abeyance, but it will come to the fore in the tribulation and on through the millennium and into eternity. As the prophet Zechariah says,

`Behold, the man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place he shall branch out, and .....He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on His throne; so He shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.` (Zech. 6: 12 & 13)

 

Thus we see that the Lord`s High priestly office is everlasting, universal, and combined with His kingship.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 3:55 PM, shiloh357 said:

 

That applies to the original Tabernacle and the ministry of the original temple of Solomon.  The Temple in Ezekiel and the services that take place in it are not according to the Mosaic Law and do not follow the same pattern, if you study the Ezekiel 40-48 in depth.   It is a completely different system.

 

Here is the whole scripture of Zechariah 6: 12 & 13.

`Behold, the man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place he shall branch out, and He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on His throne; so He shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.` (Zech. 6: 12 & 13)

This is the temple that Ezekiel had a vision of. It is has some differences from the OT temple under the Mosaic Law and some similarities.

1. It will be much greater in size and the overall design is markedly different.

2. There will be a river flowing eastwards from the threshold of the temple out to the Jordan valley.

3. The mode of worship and priestly service however does parallel that of the Mosaic in numerous details.

4, There is no Day of Atonement (national repentance) as that will have  been fulfilled.

5. The animal sacrifices offered in both temples are symbolic, not efficacious. One looked forward to the Messianic promise of cleansing and atonement in the shadowy future, while the temple sacrifices in the millennium look back at Christ`s death as a historic reality.    

6. The Glory of the Lord overshadowed both temples.

7. And they worship the Lord by offering and sacrifice.

 

As these structures are built by human hands and are on earth they are still a `copy and shadow` of the true temple.

`The Lord said, “But in this place there is one greater than the temple.” (Matt. 12: 6)

`But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.` (Rev. 21: 22)

 

Christ is the true temple of God, the one through whom mankind can have access to God & through whom are given bountiful blessings.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites