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Does the Body of Christ rule on earth in the millennium?


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36 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

So it is appears that the Lord Jesus will be physically on earth during the Millennium reigning from the throne of David in His temple.

I see we posted at the same time. You said -

`The Lord's.  Since Zadok was faithful both to the Lord and to David, His descendants are rewarded by having the privilege to perform the services.`

I agree that Zadok was faithful & his descendants rewarded. So as I asked `whose authority they will be under & by whose wisdom (teaching & judging) are they operating,` and you rightly, I believe, said the Lord for He is a priest in the millennium, as we both agree.

However....you said that the Lord would NOT be operating in his priesthood on earth in the millennium, thus there seems to be a contradiction - that the millennium priests are under the Lord`s priesthood which is not operating in that time period on earth, as you say???

 

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Guest shiloh357
6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

When you say the `Lord,` do you mean God the Father, LORD, or the Lord Jesus Christ?

Jesus will  be reigning as King on earth, so yes under His regal authority.

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I see we posted at the same time. You said -

`The Lord's.  Since Zadok was faithful both to the Lord and to David, His descendants are rewarded by having the privilege to perform the services.`

I agree that Zadok was faithful & his descendants rewarded. So as I asked `whose authority they will be under & by whose wisdom (teaching & judging) are they operating,` and you rightly, I believe, said the Lord for He is a priest in the millennium, as we both agree.

However....you said that the Lord would NOT be operating in his priesthood on earth in the millennium, thus there seems to be a contradiction - that the millennium priests are under the Lord`s priesthood which is not operating in that time period on earth, as you say???

 

No, I did not say that they would be under His priesthood.   I have only ever said that Jesus will be operating in the office of KING during the millennium.   I said that Jesus will hold the title of priest, but He will not be operating in the office of priest, or Great High Priest.   We do not find any mention of Jesus offering sacrifices during the millennium.  So it's not a contradiction.    Jesus hold the title of King while on earth, and claimed to be a King, but Jesus did not operate in the office of King.   So there is nothing contradictory about claiming that Jesus can hold the title of priest, but not operate in the office of a priest.

Jesus will be operating as King on earth reigning on His earthly throne, the throne of David, from His Temple, as described in Ezekiel 40-48.

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17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 Jesus hold the title of King while on earth, and claimed to be a King, but Jesus did not operate in the office of King.   So there is nothing contradictory about claiming that Jesus can hold the title of priest, but not operate in the office of a priest.

 

Holy character, full of mercy and grace, with the authority to rule, is inherent in Deity. Holy character full of mercy and grace, reveals Priesthood, while authority to rule is called kingship. These two in Deity, character and authority, are inseparable and are the source of all rulership and spirituality.

 In pre-manifestation we are told that the Lord is known as - the king of heaven, (Dan. 4: 37), the king of Glory, (Ps. 24: 7 - 10), and the king of the Ages, (1 Tim. 1: 17)

Then during His ministry among men He demonstrated His kingly authority over unseen powers, over disease and death, dominating the material, physical, social and moral realms. He revealed a new ministry of mercy and mediation for the needs of mankind.

The kingdom of Heaven is anterior to the kingdom of Israel, for the things that are seen are temporal and the things unseen are eternal. (2 Cor. 4: 18) Wherefore, Christ did not begin a career as a king in the present order. He was King when born into the world. (Matt. 2: 2)

Truly as you say, Shiloh, the Lord is the king who is ruling in the millennium, but specifically the Lord is - a priest who rules, -

`...a priest on his throne,...` (Zech. 6: 13)

for His holy character and His authority to rule is the very essence of Deity and at the very heart of the eternal purposes in Christ Jesus.

Thus the `priest on His throne,` is the priest who rules in righteousness, operating in both `offices,` king and priest, as they are inherent in His deity.
 

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5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Holy character, full of mercy and grace, with the authority to rule, is inherent in Deity. Holy character full of mercy and grace, reveals Priesthood, while authority to rule is called kingship. These two in Deity, character and authority, are inseparable and are the source of all rulership and spirituality.

 In pre-manifestation we are told that the Lord is known as - the king of heaven, (Dan. 4: 37), the king of Glory, (Ps. 24: 7 - 10), and the king of the Ages, (1 Tim. 1: 17)

Then during His ministry among men He demonstrated His kingly authority over unseen powers, over disease and death, dominating the material, physical, social and moral realms. He revealed a new ministry of mercy and mediation for the needs of mankind.

When Jesus was on earth, He had suspended the prerogatives of divine authority.  Jesus was a king, but did not operate in that office.   Rather, what Jesus said was that his works, were the works of His Father.  Jesus operated in the office of a prophet under the Old Covenant during His earthly ministry.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (Joh 5:19) 

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5:30)

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
(Joh 8:28)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
(Joh 12:49)

Jesus has three prophetic offices:  Prophet, Priest and King.   All three offices are united in singular Person of Jesus Christ.  But nowhere do we find Him operating in any combination of those offices at the same time.  In His earthly ministry, Jesus temporarily divested Himself of his royal privileges and exercised power over demons, death and nature at the command of His Father. Jesus' said that He spoke the words He was commanded to speak by His Father.  He did not operate under His own authority, as Jesus Himself, said in Scripture.

The office of Great High Priest is a heavenly office, not an earthly office.  Jesus is involved in that ministry to the Church at this time.  He is not the Great High Priest of all mankind.  His ministry is efficacious only those who belong to the Church for which He died.  Once the Church age has ended, and Jesus returns,  He returns as the conquering King/Messiah of Israel in Revelation 19 and comes to save Israel from annihilation at the hands of world, at Armageddon.  His office as the Church's Great High Priest is over by that time.

From there, He will establish His millennial Kingdom on earth, which will follow His judgment of unbelieving man at the Great White Throne. 
 

Quote

 

The kingdom of Heaven is anterior to the kingdom of Israel, for the things that are seen are temporal and the things unseen are eternal. (2 Cor. 4: 18) Wherefore, Christ did not begin a career as a king in the present order. He was King when born into the world. (Matt. 2: 2)


 

No one is disputing that.   Jesus was a King before His incarnation.  But did not operate in that office on earth.

Quote

 

Truly as you say, Shiloh, the Lord is the king who is ruling in the millennium, but specifically the Lord is - a priest who rules, -

`...a priest on his throne,...` (Zech. 6: 13)

for His holy character and His authority to rule is the very essence of Deity and at the very heart of the eternal purposes in Christ Jesus.

Thus the `priest on His throne,` is the priest who rules in righteousness, operating in both `offices,` king and priest, as they are inherent in His deity.

 

No, He is not operating in both roles.   He holds both titles, but operates only in the office of King/Messiah.   But Jesus office of "Great High Priest"  is not going to continue into the Millennium, as He will be on the earth, as has been clearly noted and you have accepted up to this point.   

It is during the Millennium that the totality of God's promises to Israel will finally be fulfilled as well as all of the Messianic prophecies of Jesus role as Israel's Messiah will be fulfilled to Israel, as well.   That is the role that Jesus will be fulfilling on earth during the Millennium.  He will be King/Messiah.   He will not operate as a priest.

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19 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

Jesus has three prophetic offices:  Prophet, Priest and King.   All three offices are united in singular Person of Jesus Christ.  But nowhere do we find Him operating in any combination of those offices at the same time.  In His earthly ministry, Jesus temporarily divested Himself of his royal privileges and exercised power over demons, death and nature at the command of His Father. Jesus' said that He spoke the words He was commanded to speak by His Father.  He did not operate under His own authority, as Jesus Himself, said in Scripture.

I believe the Lord did operate in the 3 offices of - prophet, Priest and King, while He was on earth. To understand this we need to know how the Godhead operates. Firstly we know that the 3 persons of the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, are  - all equal, have unanimity , (one-mindedness), & are in unity. However when operating, the Godhead have a hierarchy, an order -

Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

Thus when we see the Lord in His manifestation upon the earth He is under the authority and guidance of the Father - as Prophet, Priest and King.

Prophet - speaking the Father`s word.

`Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have you not known the things which happened there in these days?” And he (Jesus) said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,….” (Luke 24: 19)

 

Priest - doing the Father`s work.

`And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all those were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “ Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”` (Luke 4:17 - 19)

 

King - exercising the Father`s authority.

`Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know you, who you are - the Holy One of God!”

But Jesus rebuked Him saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst; it came out of him and did not hurt him. So they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, “What a word this is! For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.` (Luke 4: 33 - 36)

`Now when he got into a boat, his disciples followed him. And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But he was asleep. Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then he arose and rebuked the winds and the sea. And there was a great calm. And the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”` (Matt. 8: 23 - 27)

 

Here we see that the Lord introduce into kingship a new dimension, by wielding authority over unseen powers, and even the laws of the universe came under His control as He took authority over the wind and storm.

Thus I do see the Lord operating as Prophet, Priest and King while He was on earth. Just because many were rebellious in Israel and did not accept Him, does not negate His authority and power He displayed as King in their midst.

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Guest shiloh357
5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I believe the Lord did operate in the 3 offices of - prophet, Priest and King, while He was on earth. To understand this we need to know how the Godhead operates. Firstly we know that the 3 persons of the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, are  - all equal, have unanimity , (one-mindedness), & are in unity. However when operating, the Godhead have a hierarchy, an order -

Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

Thus when we see the Lord in His manifestation upon the earth He is under the authority and guidance of the Father - as Prophet, Priest and King.

Prophet - speaking the Father`s word.

`Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have you not known the things which happened there in these days?” And he (Jesus) said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,….” (Luke 24: 19)

 

Priest - doing the Father`s work.

`And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all those were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “ Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”` (Luke 4:17 - 19)

 

King - exercising the Father`s authority.

`Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know you, who you are - the Holy One of God!”

But Jesus rebuked Him saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst; it came out of him and did not hurt him. So they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, “What a word this is! For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.` (Luke 4: 33 - 36)

`Now when he got into a boat, his disciples followed him. And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But he was asleep. Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then he arose and rebuked the winds and the sea. And there was a great calm. And the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”` (Matt. 8: 23 - 27)

 

Here we see that the Lord introduce into kingship a new dimension, by wielding authority over unseen powers, and even the laws of the universe came under His control as He took authority over the wind and storm.

Thus I do see the Lord operating as Prophet, Priest and King while He was on earth. Just because many were rebellious in Israel and did not accept Him, does not negate His authority and power He displayed as King in their midst.

No, that would be incorrect. The fact that Jesus was operating under the Father's authority and not under His own authority negates the fact that Jesus was operating in the office of King.    It is a self-defeating argument to say that Jesus operated in the office of King, but was exercising the Father's authority.   To operate as a King, Jesus exercises His own authority.

The fact that Jesus was doing the Father's work doesn't indicate that He was operating as the Great High Priest.   The Great High Priest is the only priestly office Jesus has ever ministered in, and that is a heavenly office, not an earthly office.  Jesus was born of the Tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi, so Jesus could not operate in a priestly office on earth.   We do not see Jesus doing anything priestly while He was operating in his earthly ministry.

His earthly ministry was patterned after that of the prophet.  He operated as a prophet under the Old Covenant.  Jesus was a king, but did not exercise His divine/regal prerogatives and even Jesus said as much.  Paul, in referencing Jesus' earthly ministry tells us the following from Phil. 2:5-8:

1. Jesus, though God, did not exploit His divinity to His own advantage;

2. Divested Himself of His divine prerogatives;

3. Made Himself a servant;

4. Became fully human

5. Voluntarily became obedient to death on the cross.

So there is nothing in that description that indicates that Jesus was operating in either the office of a priest or that of a king  during His earthly ministry.

Your problem here is that you are trying to force something on the Scriptures that is simply not there. 

The facts are thus:   Jesus ministry as priest is limited, scripturally, to His ministry as the Church's Great High Priest, who is making intercession for the saints, those who are born again.   It is limited in scope to the Church.  It is not a ministry that is universal to the whole world.  It is limited in time, in that it began after Jesus' resurrection and will continue until the end of the Church age.   When Jesus returns, He is not returning as a prophet or as the Great High Priest.   He is returning the King and Messiah of Israel to destroy Israel's enemies, and to establish His earthly Kingdom and that Kingdom will last 1,000 years.

The earthly reign of Jesus as Israel's King/Messiah for the duration of the Millennium is simply beyond dispute at this point.    I think we need to move on from the belaboring this point, and get to the crux of debate and that is the location of the saints during the 1,000 years.

 

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You said Jesus was `fully human` which I agree with, however you seemed to omit His deity, which I know you would agree with.

Jesus is the Son of Man & the Son of God.

`The Son of Man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and give His life a ransom for many.` (Matt. 20: 28)

`The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.` (Mark 1: 1)

Now I was thinking the same, that we need to move on to Christ rule on the throne of David in the millennium. You said -

The earthly reign of Jesus as Israel's King/Messiah for the duration of the Millennium is simply beyond dispute at this point.    I think we need to move on from the belaboring this point, and get to the crux of debate and that is the location of the saints during the 1,000 years.

So...would you like to elaborate on your belief that Jesus reigns on earth in the millennium?

 

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Guest shiloh357
1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

You said Jesus was `fully human` which I agree with, however you seemed to omit His deity, which I know you would agree with.

Jesus is the Son of Man & the Son of God.

`The Son of Man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and give His life a ransom for many.` (Matt. 20: 28)

`The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.` (Mark 1: 1)

Now I was thinking the same, that we need to move on to Christ rule on the throne of David in the millennium. You said -

The earthly reign of Jesus as Israel's King/Messiah for the duration of the Millennium is simply beyond dispute at this point.    I think we need to move on from the belaboring this point, and get to the crux of debate and that is the location of the saints during the 1,000 years.

So...would you like to elaborate on your belief that Jesus reigns on earth in the millennium?

 

I have said all that needs to be said about Jesus' reign during the millennium.   It has been established that it is on earth, and that He will reign on earth from His Temple seated on His throne.    That's really the long and short of it.

I think it's time to move on to main topic of this debate which is namely that you believe that the saints will be with Jesus in heaven during the Millennium.  I am curious how you are going to make that case. 

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28 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I have said all that needs to be said about Jesus' reign during the millennium.   It has been established that it is on earth, and that He will reign on earth from His Temple seated on His throne.    That's really the long and short of it.

I think it's time to move on to main topic of this debate which is namely that you believe that the saints will be with Jesus in heaven during the Millennium.  I am curious how you are going to make that case. 

I don`t see where you have `established` that Jesus will physically reign on the earth. Can you give scriptures to support your view? 

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Just now, Marilyn C said:

I don`t see where you have `established` that Jesus will physically reign on the earth. Can you give scriptures to support your view? 

Uh, the throne in his earthly temple where he will be during the Millennium (Ezek 40-48)?   You brought up no opposition to that, in fact, you appear to have agreed with what I stated.  So...

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