Does the Body of Christ rule on earth in the millennium?

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You are asking questions that require speculation and I am not going to sit and answer a litany of questions about things that the Bible doesn't give us enough light to answer.   If you don't have a rebuttal, then we need to end the debate. 

Actually God does write in His word concerning where all the different groups He has been training, will be placed in eternity, under Christ`s rulership.

Now your view of the Lord physically ruling on earth reminds me of a captain of a large ocean liner, controlling and overseeing the ship from say the lounge or kitchen area.  From just a small part of the ship, whereas he would be up in the control area where he navigates and oversees the ship`s course.

I see that you are thinking that the Lord, the king of heaven, the king of glory, ruler over myriads of angels in the third heaven, and the overcomers, the upholder of all things, the designer of the ages, the King over kings and Lord over lords, and many more responsibilities besides, you see Him ruling all of those people, angels and realms from a small part of the `ship,` from His `footstool,` as God calls it.

David`s throne is but one part of the Lord`s responsibilities, and as I said before He is training Israel to rule the nations. He will not do the job for them, but will be working through them, so they can grow as sons to be part of God`s great kingdom over all in eternity.

`For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you…. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left.` (Isa. 30: 18 , 19 & 21)

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Actually God does write in His word concerning where all the different groups He has been training, will be placed in eternity, under Christ`s rulership.

Now your view of the Lord physically ruling on earth reminds me of a captain of a large ocean liner, controlling and overseeing the ship from say the lounge or kitchen area.  From just a small part of the ship, whereas he would be up in the control area where he navigates and oversees the ship`s course.

I see that you are thinking that the Lord, the king of heaven, the king of glory, ruler over myriads of angels in the third heaven, and the overcomers, the upholder of all things, the designer of the ages, the King over kings and Lord over lords, and many more responsibilities besides, you see Him ruling all of those people, angels and realms from a small part of the `ship,` from His `footstool,` as God calls it.

David`s throne is but one part of the Lord`s responsibilities, and as I said before He is training Israel to rule the nations. He will not do the job for them, but will be working through them, so they can grow as sons to be part of God`s great kingdom over all in eternity.

`For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you…. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left.` (Isa. 30: 18 , 19 & 21)

Okay, so is there an argument or rebuttal in all of that?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Okay, so is there an argument or rebuttal in all of that?

I said -

David`s throne is but one part of the Lord`s responsibilities, and as I said before He is training Israel to rule the nations. He will not do the job for them, but will be working through them, so they can grow as sons to be part of God`s great kingdom over all, in eternity.

`For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you…. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left.` (Isa. 30: 18 , 19 & 21)

The argument is that the Lord will be training Israel to rule, and thus He will not be on the earth.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

17 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I said -

David`s throne is but one part of the Lord`s responsibilities, and as I said before He is training Israel to rule the nations. He will not do the job for them, but will be working through them, so they can grow as sons to be part of God`s great kingdom over all, in eternity.

`For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you…. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left.` (Isa. 30: 18 , 19 & 21)

The argument is that the Lord will be training Israel to rule, and thus He will not be on the earth.

 

No, that is wrong.  It is wrong because you completely ignore Messianic prophecy and all of the passages I have cited that state that the Messianic Kingdom will be on the earth.   If Jesus' Messianic kingdom isn't on the earth, then He fails to keep His promises to that end.

And where does the Bible say that God will train Israel to rule the nations?   Where are you getting that from?

The messianic hope is the reign of Messiah on earth.  It was even what the disciples expected and Jesus did not correct them.  He only corrected their timing, not their expectation of his Messianic rule on earth from Israel.

[Marilyn C]

36 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that is wrong.  It is wrong because you completely ignore Messianic prophecy and all of the passages I have cited that state that the Messianic Kingdom will be on the earth.   If Jesus' Messianic kingdom isn't on the earth, then He fails to keep His promises to that end.

And where does the Bible say that God will train Israel to rule the nations?   Where are you getting that from?

The messianic hope is the reign of Messiah on earth.  It was even what the disciples expected and Jesus did not correct them.  He only corrected their timing, not their expectation of his Messianic rule on earth from Israel.

I do not and have not ignored the Messianic prophecies. I agree that the Lord will `sit on David`s throne, ie have the authority over it. However our difference is that there is NO scripture that shows Jesus physically ruling on the earth in the millennium. It is your own view that has to have Him here.

As to training Israel to rule the nations, that has been God`s purpose for them. They disobeyed and thus went into a time of chastisement - over 2,000 years.

God calls Israel (among other names) His son.

`When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son...` (Hosea 11: 1)

We know that the Lord chastens His children as a father. This is Solomon speaking to his own son but it includes the Lord`s discipline.

`My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor detest correction; for whom the Lord loves He corrects. Just as a father the son in whom He delights.` (Prov. 3: 11 & 12)

The road has been long with the Lord being patient with Israel and we know and agree that He will again return to them. They will rule over the nations as God purposed, and this time they will hear the Lord for He will guide and speak to them when they call. He will give King David wisdom and the priests that are teaching and judging, also. This is the `training` of Israel to rule the nations of the world.

Now let`s look a bit closer to what the disciples actually asked the Lord.

`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

Note the restoring of the kingdom to Israel. That is what they were interested in - their nation coming out from under Roman rule.

[Guest shiloh357]

52 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

However our difference is that there is NO scripture that shows Jesus physically ruling on the earth in the millennium. It is your own view that has to have Him here.

Not true:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.(Rev 20:4-6)

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  (Rev 5:10)

Now both of those passages tell us that believers will be reigning on the earth.  Revelation 20:4-6 tells us that there will be saints reigning on the earth with Jesus.   The first resurrection are the dead saints who died during the Tribulation.   Revelation 5:10 tells us that those who were saved during the church age will be ruling on the earth, as well.    So, there will be two different kinds  of believers on earth and they will reign with Jesus on the earth.

So, it is not my view.  It's what the Bible says and I will choose to believe what it says.   I am not going to cherry pick verses that have nothing to  do with the millennium and try to apply them incorrectly to the Millennium, which is basically all you have been doing in this entire debate.

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Now let`s look a bit closer to what the disciples actually asked the Lord.

`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

Note the restoring of the kingdom to Israel. That is what they were interested in - their nation coming out from under Roman rule.

 

Yes, and their expectation was that Jesus was going to rule that kingdom, that he would overthrow them and take the throne of Israel.   It is precisely that national expectation that fueled the religious leaders' desire to put Him to death.

When Jesus entered into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey, the people were crying out Hosanna, and calling Jesus "Son of David"  which is a Messianic title for Jesus and in doing so, they were preparing to make Jesus their king.  They were calling out for their King to save them.   Jesus, had HE wanted to, could have taken the throne at that time. 

Nowhere does Jesus correct their expectation of Him an earthly King/Messiah.  He only corrects the timing when speaking to the disciples.

They were interested in far more than simply getting out from under Roman rule.  That was really only one small part of it.  They had an expectation based on OT prophecy of a time of world peace and a Kingdom to come in which the Messiah, Son of David would reign in Israel on David's throne.

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I do not and have not ignored the Messianic prophecies. I agree that the Lord will `sit on David`s throne, ie have the authority over it.

In that case, you don't believe the Messianic prophecies.  You are trying to reinterpret the Bible to fit what you want to believe.   Sitting on the throne of David means exactly that.   It is always an earthly throne and Jesus will physically inhabit that throne. 

[Guest shiloh357]

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As to training Israel to rule the nations, that has been God`s purpose for them. They disobeyed and thus went into a time of chastisement - over 2,000 years.

God calls Israel (among other names) His son.

`When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son...` (Hosea 11: 1)

We know that the Lord chastens His children as a father. This is Solomon speaking to his own son but it includes the Lord`s discipline.

`My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor detest correction; for whom the Lord loves He corrects. Just as a father the son in whom He delights.` (Prov. 3: 11 & 12)

The road has been long with the Lord being patient with Israel and we know and agree that He will again return to them. They will rule over the nations as God purposed, and this time they will hear the Lord for He will guide and speak to them when they call. He will give King David wisdom and the priests that are teaching and judging, also. This is the `training` of Israel to rule the nations of the world.

None of that even comes close to proving that Israel will rule the nations, or that God is training them to that end.   He disciplines Israel, but what you are claiming is not supported by the Scriptures you are using.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  (Rev 5:10)

 

As we well know, no scripture is `stand alone.` It has to fit in with all relevant scriptures and God`s purposes over all. You say that scripture says `we shall reign ON the earth,` Whereas it says `we shall reign `epi` the earth.` the Greek word `epi` means `over or upon.` Thus we need more scriptures to show us which it is `over or upon.`

Where are you scriptures to show the Body of Christ, the overcomers will reign ON the earth.

- ?

- ?

- ?

 

I believe the scripture tells us that `we shall reign OVER the earth,` with the following scriptures as support for that. They show -

Our High Calling to heaven.

`Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling...` (Heb. 3: 1)

The Apostle Paul said, `Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on......I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 12 & 14)

Gr. Word `ano` meaning upward or on top, above, high up.

 

Our citizenship in heaven.

`For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

Gk. word `politeuma,` meaning a community, citizenship, fig. conversation.

 

Our hope in heaven.

`We give thanks to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven...` (Col. 1:  3 & 4)

Gk. word `eipis,` meaning to anticipate with pleasure, expectation, confidence,  hope.

 

That we are Pilgrims on this earth.

`Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.` (1 Peter 2: 11)

Gk. word `parepidemos` meaning an alien, a resident foreigner, pilgrim, stranger.

 

Thus we see that the Body of Christ, the overcomers have a hope, and an upward calling to heaven. They are pilgrims passing through this fallen world and have their citizenship reserved in heaven where they will rule and reign with Christ OVER the earth.  

They do not desire to return to this fallen world, but to partake of the eternal blessings with the community of overcomers, throughout eternity.

 

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 I am not going to cherry pick verses that have nothing to  do with the millennium and try to apply them incorrectly to the Millennium, which is basically all you have been doing in this entire debate.

 

As to `cherry picking` Shiloh, you have focussed on one part of the big picture to the exclusion of its relationship to the whole.

- You talk of the Messianic reign of Christ, (Son of Man) but refuse to see the reign of the Son of God in the heavenlies.

- You talk of the believers but negate them being the Body of Christ with an eternal purpose.

- You talk of Israel but cut off talk of their eternal purpose.

 

To only focus on a small part of the big picture without reference to its place in the whole, leads to a warped perspective. Thus even though we have debated for over 80 replies each, you seem only able to share thus -

1. That the Lord will sit on a piece of furniture in a room in the temple awaiting people to worship Him once a week.

2. That the overcomers will be helping somehow out there in the nations.

 

This is not credible or scriptural. A partial view of the millennium, (not taking into account what is happening `far above all,` and what is its particular ongoing purpose,) leads to a distorted and false picture.  

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

In that case, you don't believe the Messianic prophecies.  You are trying to reinterpret the Bible to fit what you want to believe.   Sitting on the throne of David means exactly that.   It is always an earthly throne and Jesus will physically inhabit that throne. 

The throne of David is on earth, but NO where, but nowhere does it say that the Lord has to sit physically on earth. You have added that part.