Guest shiloh357 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Marilyn C said: As we well know, no scripture is `stand alone.` It has to fit in with all relevant scriptures and God`s purposes over all. You say that scripture says `we shall reign ON the earth,` Whereas it says `we shall reign `epi` the earth.` the Greek word `epi` means `over or upon.` Thus we need more scriptures to show us which it is `over or upon.` No, you are wrong. I have already addressed this and you handily ignored it. But I will explain this again, so pay attention. The phrase "on the earth" in Greek is in the genitive since it connected to genitive verbs. Gr. epi tēs gēs, prepositional phrase correctly rendered "on the earth" (F. Blass and A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 96, sec. 177, genitive with verbs of ruling and surpassing). Epi with the genitive, of place, lit. on, upon, answering the question "where?" as on (the) earth ~ Arndt and Gingrich, Lexicon, p. 285 Because it is in the genitive, cannot be translated in Rev. 5:10 as "over." Quote I believe the scripture tells us that `we shall reign OVER the earth,` with the following scriptures as support for that. They show - Our High Calling to heaven. `Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling...` (Heb. 3: 1) The Apostle Paul said, `Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on......I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 12 & 14) Gr. Word `ano` meaning upward or on top, above, high up. Our citizenship in heaven. `For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20) Gk. word `politeuma,` meaning a community, citizenship, fig. conversation. Our hope in heaven. `We give thanks to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven...` (Col. 1: 3 & 4) Gk. word `eipis,` meaning to anticipate with pleasure, expectation, confidence, hope. That we are Pilgrims on this earth. `Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.` (1 Peter 2: 11) Gk. word `parepidemos` meaning an alien, a resident foreigner, pilgrim, stranger. Thus we see that the Body of Christ, the overcomers have a hope, and an upward calling to heaven. They are pilgrims passing through this fallen world and have their citizenship reserved in heaven where they will rule and reign with Christ OVER the earth. They do not desire to return to this fallen world, but to partake of the eternal blessings with the community of overcomers, throughout eternity. This goes back to violating context and basic rules of hermeneutics. You are gabbing verses about our position and standing as the Church and you incorrectly applying them to the Millennium. Those are spiritual realities about us that apply to us, not to the world during the millennial reign of Jesus. Heaven is not where we will spend eternity. It is only a temporary place in route to our final destination, which is the New Heavens and New Earth. The high calling that Paul speaks us isn't the same as the heavenly calling mentioned in Heb. 3:1, so right there you are mixing contexts and mishandling Scripture even between those two passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Marilyn C said: As to `cherry picking` Shiloh, you have focussed on one part of the big picture to the exclusion of its relationship to the whole. - You talk of the Messianic reign of Christ, (Son of Man) but refuse to see the reign of the Son of God in the heavenlies. - You talk of the believers but negate them being the Body of Christ with an eternal purpose. - You talk of Israel but cut off talk of their eternal purpose. To only focus on a small part of the big picture without reference to its place in the whole, leads to a warped perspective. Thus even though we have debated for over 80 replies each, you seem only able to share thus - 1. That the Lord will sit on a piece of furniture in a room in the temple awaiting people to worship Him once a week. 2. That the overcomers will be helping somehow out there in the nations. This is not credible or scriptural. A partial view of the millennium, (not taking into account what is happening `far above all,` and what is its particular ongoing purpose,) leads to a distorted and false picture. This debate is about Jesus and the believers during His millennial reign. That is the subject. I am not "cherry picking" anything. My focus is necessarily on the topic of the debate. You want to deflect with all of these Scriptures that only apply to the Church age describe the position of the Church today and you are attempting to have a broader debate than I am. I am trying to keep the debate on topic. You seem to think that this is an opportunity for you to teach, instead of debate. I don't need any instruction from you. You just need focus on the debate and stop trying to teach. If you want to teach, then start a thread to that end, in the doctrinal forum or something. This is a debate and debates have a narrow focus. 7 hours ago, Marilyn C said: The throne of David is on earth, but NO where, but nowhere does it say that the Lord has to sit physically on earth. You have added that part. But when Scripture is taken together, it indicates that He will. The role of Messiah/King is an earthly role, not a heavenly one. The throne of David is the throne that speaks to an earthly reign over Israel. Anyone willing to apply commonsense will understand that giving him the throne is pointless if He is not going to reign on that throne. The fact that it says that Jesus will have the throne implies His reign from it. You are trying to appeal to technical wording and declaring that unless I can produce an exact wording, I can't say that Jesus will sit on the throne, and that is simply not the case. If we based theology on reasoning like that, then we would have to discard the Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 18, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,188 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,485 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: No, you are wrong. I have already addressed this and you handily ignored it. But I will explain this again, so pay attention. I read your explanation Shiloh, but you didn`t agree with mine either, that it has to agree with all other scriptures pertaining to that topic and to God`s purposes as a whole. 35 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: This goes back to violating context and basic rules of hermeneutics. You are gabbing verses about our position and standing as the Church and you incorrectly applying them to the Millennium. Those are spiritual realities about us that apply to us, not to the world during the millennial reign of Jesus. Heaven is not where we will spend eternity. It is only a temporary place in route to our final destination, which is the New Heavens and New Earth. The high calling that Paul speaks us isn't the same as the heavenly calling mentioned in Heb. 3:1, so right there you are mixing contexts and mishandling Scripture even between those two passages. I am not grabbing verses, as you say, they all pertain to the Body of Christ`s high calling in the third heaven where they will be kingpriests and rule and reign with the Lord over all God`s great kingdom - the third heaven, the universal realm and the earth. The Davidic kingdom is just part of God`s great kingdom which He will give to His Son. Jesus, as the Son of God, in His glorified exalted body, is visible and tangible. He will be coronated, as you also said in the third heaven as the supreme ruler over all as God said. Thus the Body of Christ, will also be crowned and rule with the Lord of Glory in that high realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 18, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,188 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,485 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: This debate is about Jesus and the believers during His millennial reign. That is the subject. I am not "cherry picking" anything. My focus is necessarily on the topic of the debate. You want to deflect with all of these Scriptures that only apply to the Church age describe the position of the Church today and you are attempting to have a broader debate than I am. I am trying to keep the debate on topic. You seem to think that this is an opportunity for you to teach, instead of debate. I don't need any instruction from you. You just need focus on the debate and stop trying to teach. If you want to teach, then start a thread to that end, in the doctrinal forum or something. This is a debate and debates have a narrow focus. It is only you who say those scriptures apply to the Church age. And your idea of keeping it on topic is to only see the Lord as the Son of Man and not as the Son of God who is over all and David`s throne is only part of that. Yes the topic is specific, however it still needs to be in context with what is happening around it. As I believe the overcomers will rule from the third heaven, then that will be part of what I am debating. You think I am trying to teach, when in fact I am just bringing forth my points. 24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The role of Messiah/King is an earthly role, not a heavenly one. The throne of David is the throne that speaks to an earthly reign over Israel. Anyone willing to apply commonsense will understand that giving him the throne is pointless if He is not going to reign on that throne. The fact that it says that Jesus will have the throne implies His reign from it. You are trying to appeal to technical wording and declaring that unless I can produce an exact wording, I can't say that Jesus will sit on the throne, and that is simply not the case. If we based theology on reasoning like that, then we would have to discard the Trinity. Commonsense would tell one that authority comes from above and is over the lesser. Giving the Lord David`s throne and ruling it from above is certainly not pointless, for it is ONLY when Jesus in His glorified body is given the authority and power to rule OVER ALL that He then can deal with the demonic forces in the universal heavens and then the kingdoms of this world till He then addresses Israel. There is a progression there Shiloh, of authority and it does not come from David`s throne but from the Lord`s seat of power in the third heaven where He was given it by His Father. As to `technical wording`, I do not think asking for scriptures to support your view would be called that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: I read your explanation Shiloh, but you didn`t agree with mine either, that it has to agree with all other scriptures pertaining to that topic and to God`s purposes as a whole. Grammar is like math. It is what it is. . I cited authorities to make my case. Grammar doesn't lie. You simply cannot support your position from the Greek and you don't understand the differences between Accusative, Genitive, Dative and Nominative cases in Greek. You cite other Scriptures that are not parallel to Rom. 5:10. Scripture comparisons must be parallel and cover the same subject matter. What YOU are doing is using Scripture to refute Scripture and apply passages that are not designed to address the issue in question and have no contextual or topical relationship to Rom. 5:10. You are employing very poor hermeneutics. Quote I am not grabbing verses, as you say, they all pertain to the Body of Christ`s high calling in the third heaven where they will be kingpriests and rule and reign with the Lord over all God`s great kingdom - the third heaven, the universal realm and the earth. The Davidic kingdom is just part of God`s great kingdom which He will give to His Son. The Davidic Kingdom He is given is the Davidic Kingdom on earth. The whole earth will be under Jesus' Davidic reign. And that is reflected in the fact that the whole earth will be making obligatory pilgrimages to worship at the Temple during the Millennium. And yes you are grabbing and cherry-picking verses. You are taking verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand are employing them improperly to a subject they were not intended to address. Most of the NT passages you cite were written to believers pertaining to their relationship to world in this Church age and you trying to force those passages to address life during the Millennium and you are simply wrong for doing that. It is poor hermeneutical treatment of Scripture. Quote Jesus, as the Son of God, in His glorified exalted body, is visible and tangible. He will be coronated, as you also said in the third heaven as the supreme ruler over all as God said. Thus the Body of Christ, will also be crowned and rule with the Lord of Glory in that high realm. Jesus' coronation is followed by His bodily return to earth to destroy Israel's enemies and set up His kingdom where he will reign for 1,000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 30 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: It is only you who say those scriptures apply to the Church age. And your idea of keeping it on topic is to only see the Lord as the Son of Man and not as the Son of God who is over all and David`s throne is only part of that. It is very clear to anyone who is honest and objective about those verses that they only apply to the Church and it's relationship to this world. Nothing in those passages suggest otherwise. My idea of keeping it on topic is to address what the title of debate title says we are supposed to be discussing. I am not only Jesus as the Son of Man, and I have made that point before when you made the same accusation previously. But it is His role as the Son of Man that is the singular focus of this debate. You keep trying to broaden the debate topic, but that is inappropriate as a debate topic. YOU need to stay on topic. If you wanted a broader topic, then you should have said so at the outset. Either debate the topic and the topic only, or we can end the debate. Quote Yes the topic is specific, however it still needs to be in context with what is happening around it. As I believe the overcomers will rule from the third heaven, then that will be part of what I am debating. I think we understand the context around the Millennium. But you are not citing millennial passages. You are citing passages that are relevant to the Church age and forcing an invalid application to the millennial reign of Jesus. Quote Commonsense would tell one that authority comes from above and is over the lesser. Giving the Lord David`s throne and ruling it from above is certainly not pointless, for it is ONLY when Jesus in His glorified body is given the authority and power to rule OVER ALL that He then can deal with the demonic forces in the universal heavens and then the kingdoms of this world till He then addresses Israel. There is a progression there Shiloh, of authority and it does not come from David`s throne but from the Lord`s seat of power in the third heaven where He was given it by His Father. The problem here is that you are taking the word "over" and using in a spatial sense. To "rule over" doesn't refer to a location. It refers to the scope of what is ruled. Queen Elizabeth rules over the UK, but her throne isn't in the sky. Jesus will rule over the nations during the Millennium, but that doesn't mean He is in heaven. It means that his authority will cover the entire world, and indeed the whole universe. Nothing we say about the universal nature of Jesus' sovereign changes regardless of where the throne is located. Jesus is just as sovereign over the universe on earth as He would be in heaven. So your argument in this regard is rather weak. Quote As to `technical wording`, I do not think asking for scriptures to support your view would be called that. I have already provided numerous Scriptures that indicate an earthly reign and most of them have been ignored or gone unaddressed. You keep wanting a verse that says in so many words, "Jesus will reign on earth." You ask for specific wording that you know isn't there and then pretend that I can't present Scripture to support my view. All of Scriptures that I have provided apply directly to the millennial reign of Christ, as opposed to yours, which do not at all, in any way, relate to the millennial age, whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 19, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,188 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,485 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It has been a long debate and as I draw towards my conclusion, I will first post a summary of my main points. I believe that the Body of Christ will rule with the Lord from the third heaven. HEAVEN. (pre- millennium) The Lord is the Kingpriest in the midst of the Body of Christ who are also kingpriests. They will rule and reign from there. a) The Lord`s Authority. The glorified Jesus is given all authority and power over all God`s great kingdom - the third heaven, the Universe and the earth. b) The Restoration of all things. The visible authority in the third heaven is the start of the restoration of authority in God`s great kingdom. EARTH. (millennium) This is the earthly part of the restoration of authority in God`s great kingdom. a) The Lord sets up His authority in Israel - David as king, priests as teachers and judges. Israel learns to rule under the Lord`s authority. b) God`s glory is over Jerusalem, and a blessing to the nations. c) Those who disobey will be punished with the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 1:55 AM, Marilyn C said: It has been a long debate and as I draw towards my conclusion, I will first post a summary of my main points. I believe that the Body of Christ will rule with the Lord from the third heaven. HEAVEN. (pre- millennium) The Lord is the Kingpriest in the midst of the Body of Christ who are also kingpriests. They will rule and reign from there. a) The Lord`s Authority. The glorified Jesus is given all authority and power over all God`s great kingdom - the third heaven, the Universe and the earth. b) The Restoration of all things. The visible authority in the third heaven is the start of the restoration of authority in God`s great kingdom. EARTH. (millennium) This is the earthly part of the restoration of authority in God`s great kingdom. a) The Lord sets up His authority in Israel - David as king, priests as teachers and judges. Israel learns to rule under the Lord`s authority. b) God`s glory is over Jerusalem, and a blessing to the nations. c) Those who disobey will be punished with the plague. Are you done? Are you going to finish to your conclusion? Waiting on you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,188 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,485 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Are you done? Are you going to finish to your conclusion? Waiting on you... Ok, thanks Shiloh. And thank you for a very interesting debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,188 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,485 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Finally may this be an encouragement and exhortation to us all. `Let no one defraud you of your reward.......and not holding fast to the Head from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God...... If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. set your mind on things above, not on the things on the earth, for you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19, 3: 1 - 4) A wonderful exhortation from the Apostle Paul to the believers in the Body of Christ. This earth is not our home and we are just passing through, and one day we shall appear with the Lord in glory to rule and reign with Him there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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