Predators, Dangerous Deviants & J.D. Hall of Pulpit & Pen

[Spock]

Here is one more for those who are interested:

http://christianityinview.com/comparison.html

[JoshuasonFlower]

15 minutes ago, a tryer said:

just supporting you mate I am determinably not defensive...more a peace-maker

 

I edited out the picture to save space brother. I did not take your remarks at all as offensive nor defensive. Rather inquisitive and supportive being you said you were starting to see the EO as it is.

This is the link to that site I mentioned earlier, the resource.

Christian Denominations

Where did all the Christian Denominations come from?

If you scroll down you'll see a table with a list of denominations and dates. Those appear in the chronological order in which they came to be in this world. The Coptic Orthodox Christian church, Coptic being the Egyptian word for Egyptian, was second after that of Jesus Christ. And it was founded by one of his Apostles, John-Mark in the beginning. Hard to imagine John-Mark would have no concept of the Salvation principles of Immanuel.

Below is that excerpt from the linked resource above.

 

Quote

 

Coptic Christians (Egyptian Oriental Orthodox) 451 A.D.

Perhaps the most amazing, strong, and devout followers of Christ on the earth. Just as the Waldensians are the most persecuted of all protestant denominations, the Coptic Christians of Egypt are the most persecuted of ALL Christian denominations, period.

Founded by John-Mark (author of the "Gospel of Mark") in the first century A.D., this church flourished under the authority of the Eastern Church (later to become the Eastern Orthodox church in 1054). At the council of Chalcedon, when the Western "Roman" church began to over reach its authority. This little group of believers was wrongly accused of monophysitism (the Christology that claims that Jesus has one combined nature of God and man). Nothing could be further from the truth as their own creed of faith clearly states that they hold to one Divine nature and one Human nature in perfect unity without mix which is essentially the orthodox position for all of historic biblical Christianity.

They were persecuted by the Western Church (early Roman Catholicism), abandoned by the Eastern Church, and eventually persecuted by the Muslims with heavy taxation, beatings, and martyrdom. Were it not for a letter to Mohammed to "spare the Copts as they are your 'kin;" The Coptic Christians would have possibly been driven out or worse, wiped out. But they survived and still exist today and are constantly in the news for all of the atrocities that the Muslim Brotherhood inflict upon them. They come under heavy persecution and have had survive almost 1500 years of constant attack.

This church is the fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecy that an "altar would be built in the midst of Egypt" and a "pillar placed" - The Coptic Christians are both an altar to the Lord and have had to be a pillar to His glory for 15 centuries!

 

 

[JoshuasonFlower]

20 minutes ago, Spock said:

Joshua or anyone else from an Eo church. Is this article accurate?

http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/eastern-orthodox-christian-differs-denominations/2015/04/02/id/635781/

In matters of Salvation, in a brief review of a Newsmax article concerning Orthodox Christianity, it misspeaks a bit. Orthodox Christianity teaches the same Salvation principle as is in Protestantism. The Orthodox church does not teach that we work to achieve our Salvation as the Newsmax article seems to impart.
Rather, like unto the wisdom found in the book of James, our faith, Salvation, without works would be dead. In other words, the EO teaches that while we live we are always living and working in the light of the foundation principles of Salvation. We aren't simply saved, believe we are saved, and then fail to act as would represent our righteousness.

The 4th point in the article, respect for Mary, isn't an issue in my view. God revered Mary and held her above all women. She was the vehicle by which God delivered his only begotten son into the world. Protestants ignore Mary's preciousness in that regard. Orthodox respect her for that.

Mary's bodily ascension into Heaven isn't something Protestants refer to. It is more something that appears in the Catholic Catechism. However, many Protestants do believe that Elijah ascended into Heaven bodily per the scripture of 2 Kings chapter 2.  And of course our Lord ascended to Heaven also and before his Apostles. Why not Mary? Whether the councils that compiled the New Testament books elected to omit her ascension or not.

However, John 3:13 says, No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Perhaps it all is to remain a mystery.

Returning to the Newsmax article. Pertaining to the Eucharist. At the last supper in the upper room Jesus took the unleavened bread and the wine and told his Disciples to eat and drink those in remembrance of him. Jesus said the bread was his body, the wine was his blood. I do not fault the EO for taking Jesus at his word in contemporary times remembering as he told us to that which he laid down on the cross for our sake.

The #1 item in the Newsmax article refers to the Papacy.

1. The Authority of the Pope: Unlike Catholics, Orthodox Christians reject the authority of the pope as Christ's representative on earth. They see the pope as no greater than nor less than any other bishop (the pope is the bishop of Rome). However, this also sets them apart from Protestant denominations, who reject the notion of apostolic succession completely, believing that each individual church is obligated only to itself and to God.

I don't see an issue with that with regard to the Orthodox Christian church view. Orthodox Christianity rejects the authority of the pope as do I and all Protestants that I know.

And finally, part two of the Newsmax list. This is a great addition because part of the false criticism that often arrives on the Net against the Orthodox church is that they pray to and worship Saints.

2. The Communion of Saints: Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that those who have died in Christ are alive today in heaven and that we can communicate with them through prayer. They don't see this as worship of the saints; they believe that the saints can't act on their own power but only through interceding with Jesus on our behalf.

While there is this, 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. There is also this from Paul, with regard to Protestant beliefs in relative comparison to point 2 above.  Romans 15:30-32 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and be refreshed in your company.

We are all saints in Christ in this life and in the one to come with the Father. The Orthodox Christian church communion of Saints, or as I see it Communion with the Saints, isn't saying they pray to the Saints in Heaven to forgive their sins. Rather, they continue as they were told in this world in matters of the saints of light praying with and for one another , and as Paul's Romans 15 epistle says, his appeal for prayers are to God on his behalf, so too are those the same being afforded the saints on earth to and for the Saints in Heaven with the Father.

Again as I read it and being you asked opinion of the Newsmax article brother.

[JoshuasonFlower]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I actually quoted from EO sources, so I am telling the truth.   EO rejects the true Gospel.

The Orthodox Christian resources posted in all of the recent topics concerning the Orthodox Christian practice prove that to be an inaccurate statement regarding the faith and practice of the Orthodox Christian church.

[Spock]

10 minutes ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

In matters of Salvation, in a brief review of a Newsmax article concerning Orthodox Christianity, it misspeaks a bit. Orthodox Christianity teaches the same Salvation principle as is in Protestantism. The Orthodox church does not teach that we work to achieve our Salvation as the Newsmax article seems to impart.
Rather, like unto the wisdom found in the book of James, our faith, Salvation, without works would be dead. In other words, the EO teaches that while we live we are always living and working in the light of the foundation principles of Salvation. We aren't simply saved, believe we are saved, and then fail to act as would represent our righteousness.

The 4th point in the article, respect for Mary, isn't an issue in my view. God revered Mary and held her above all women. She was the vehicle by which God delivered his only begotten son into the world. Protestants ignore Mary's preciousness in that regard. Orthodox respect her for that.

Mary's bodily ascension into Heaven isn't something Protestants refer to. It is more something that appears in the Catholic Catechism. However, many Protestants do believe that Elijah ascended into Heaven bodily per the scripture of 2 Kings chapter 2.  And of course our Lord ascended to Heaven also and before his Apostles. Why not Mary? Whether the councils that compiled the New Testament books elected to omit her ascension or not.

However, John 3:13 says, No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Perhaps it all is to remain a mystery.

Returning to the Newsmax article. Pertaining to the Eucharist. At the last supper in the upper room Jesus took the unleavened bread and the wine and told his Disciples to eat and drink those in remembrance of him. Jesus said the bread was his body, the wine was his blood. I do not fault the EO for taking Jesus at his word in contemporary times remembering as he told us to that which he laid down on the cross for our sake.

The #1 item in the Newsmax article refers to the Papacy.

1. The Authority of the Pope: Unlike Catholics, Orthodox Christians reject the authority of the pope as Christ's representative on earth. They see the pope as no greater than nor less than any other bishop (the pope is the bishop of Rome). However, this also sets them apart from Protestant denominations, who reject the notion of apostolic succession completely, believing that each individual church is obligated only to itself and to God.

I don't see an issue with that with regard to the Orthodox Christian church view. Orthodox Christianity rejects the authority of the pope as do I and all Protestants that I know.

And finally, part two of the Newsmax list. This is a great addition because part of the false criticism that often arrives on the Net against the Orthodox church is that they pray to and worship Saints.

2. The Communion of Saints: Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that those who have died in Christ are alive today in heaven and that we can communicate with them through prayer. They don't see this as worship of the saints; they believe that the saints can't act on their own power but only through interceding with Jesus on our behalf.

While there is this, 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. There is also this from Paul, with regard to Protestant beliefs in relative comparison to point 2 above.  Romans 15:30-32 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and be refreshed in your company.

We are all saints in Christ in this life and in the one to come with the Father. The Orthodox Christian church communion of Saints, or as I see it Communion with the Saints, isn't saying they pray to the Saints in Heaven to forgive their sins. Rather, they continue as they were told in this world in matters of the saints of light praying with and for one another , and as Paul's Romans 15 epistle says, his appeal for prayers are to God on his behalf, so too are those the same being afforded the saints on earth to and for the Saints in Heaven with the Father.

Again as I read it and being you asked opinion of the Newsmax article brother.

JOSHUA,

Your response to each point is AWESOME. Thank you for that.  

Regarding SALVATION, is it safe to say that EO does NOT adhere to The "Once saved, always saved" doctrine?  I believe  this is a major split in Protestantism, whereby you see people on both sides. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, JoshuasonFlower said:

The Orthodox Christian resources posted in all of the recent topics concerning the Orthodox Christian practice prove that to be an inaccurate statement regarding the faith and practice of the Orthodox Christian church.

No, they're just worded in a way that confuses people who don't understand the relationship of works and salvation in the EO church.   In the EO, baptism is necessary for salvation.    When the EO says we are not saved by works, they mean "the works of the law"  (circumscision, kosher laws, Sabbath, etc).   They believe that good works are necessary for salvation and I have directly cited more than one EO site that denies imputed righteousness.  

Imputed righteousness is a biblical protestant teaching, not a RCC or EO teaching.

[JoshuasonFlower]

2 hours ago, Jeff2 said:

They really are closer to Biblical Christianity than most today! Thanks for pointing that out!

They are indeed.

If you have time I'd advise availing yourself of the linked resources that have been provided by myself and I believe Ms. Noodles shared some as well, that are direct links to and sponsored by Orthodox Christian church. The Gospel of Salvation is upheld in the Orthodox church. Grace, faith, Jesus, repentance, regeneration, baptism, etc...  Submersion baptism is typical in most Protestant churches. While pouring water over the head and forehead are often the baptismal methods in the Orthodox baptismal practice.
Jesus tells us we cannot enter the kingdom unless we are born of spirit and water. To my knowledge there is no passage wherein it is said submersion baptism is requisite.

Even taking time to attend an Orthodox service would allow you to see what transpires in worship of holy God and Jesus Christ. It is much fancier than what Protestants are use to. However, as said before, the foundation principles for the sake of saving souls, the points of Salvation, are all present in the Orthodox Christian tradition.

A church, the Coptic, began by the Apostle after Jesus' own heart, John-Mark, as were they all save Judas, and perhaps there are those that would even argue that being were it not Judas that identified our Master, the mission for which Immanuel was born could not have began so as to be accomplished, would hardly be able to be said to deny Christ and not keep to the mission for which our Lord was born and died. An Apostle that would begin a church that isn't about all that Christ taught at its core? Does that sound possible?

If you do attend an Orthodox church please if you would , post or even PM if you prefer and let me know.

God's blessings,

J.

[warrior12]

3 minutes ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

ven taking time to attend an Orthodox service would allow you to see what transpires in worship of holy God and Jesus Christ. It is much fancier than what Protestants are use to. However, as said before, the foundation principles for the sake of saving souls, the points of Salvation, are all present in the Orthodox Christian tradition.

Just a side question sir.  Do the EO believe in the speaking of tongues and have you ever heard of any that attends doing so. Does it occur in the service meetings ?.  thanks.

[JoshuasonFlower]

29 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, they're just worded in a way that confuses people who don't understand the relationship of works and salvation in the EO church.   In the EO, baptism is necessary for salvation.    When the EO says we are not saved by works, they mean "the works of the law"  (circumscision, kosher laws, Sabbath, etc).   They believe that good works are necessary for salvation and I have directly cited more than one EO site that denies imputed righteousness.  

Imputed righteousness is a biblical protestant teaching, not a RCC or EO teaching.

This resource linked below has been posted before to refute the wording of opponents of the Orthodox Christian church that make inaccurate claims about the actual faith and practice of the Orthodox church. As exampled above. 

Many here may recall reading this before.

This is excerpted from the article linked and sourced to the Orthodox Christian Church of America.
 

Quote

 

Excerpt) In the Eastern perspective, there is no thought that we must accumulate merits in order to justify ourselves before God, although our faithful often seem (as evidenced in Confession) to feel that if we are to be saved, our good works must outweigh our sins. Nor, on the other hand, is there a denial of the place and importance of good works in Christian life (Ephesians 2:8-10!). Salvation is accomplished by grace in response to faith. But that faith cannot be passive; it must express itself, not merely by confessing Jesus as “personal Lord and Savior,” but by feeding, clothing, visiting and otherwise caring for the “least” of Jesus’ brethren (Mt 25).

What we are saved from is the key issue here. Rather than view salvation primarily as a forensic liberation from guilt through imputed or imparted righteousness, we should see it as incorporation, by baptism, into Christ’s death and resurrection, such that we “die and rise” with Him. Thus we are saved from Death. We are freed from this ultimate consequence of sin and guilt—but only as a divinely bestowed gift of God’s ineffable love, expressed in the suffering death of His Son, a gift to which we respond with faith that issues in love. That response, through the action of the indwelling Spirit, enables us finally to share in Christ’s own resurrection and glorification, attaining what the Greek Fathers call theôsis or “deification” (which means existential participation in God’s life, and not ontological confusion between God and His human creatures).^[5]

Good works should thus be understood to be a response rather than a means to salvation. And God’s righteousness should be seen as a gift of loving, merciful, saving grace, rather than as a forensic tool, wielded in the service of divine judgment.

 

 

[JoshuasonFlower]

28 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Just a side question sir.  Do the EO believe in the speaking of tongues and have you ever heard of any that attends doing so. Does it occur in the service meetings ?.  thanks.

I'll share this Orthodox Christian church resource to help answer your question brother. "Glossolalia" is the word in the article for tongues.

Speaking in tongues - the Orthodox Christian viewpoint

"This is the excerpt from the last part of the article for brevity as it is a long article. "The Orthodox Church does not rule out Glossolalia. She simply does not regard it as one of the important ones. Better to "speak five words that can be understood...than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." This is the Orthodox Christian viewpoint." "