Should Women Be In Leadership Positions in Church?

[Churchmouse]

20 minutes ago, Wolf Bridges said:

That introspection should cause you to stop. Don't you think?

I would suggest you show me which post you are trying to insinuate something from instead of just posting words.

[other one]

one needs to take into consideration the lifestyles and societal norms of the time when the Bible was written when deciding this subject.

[Wolf Bridges]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

Something doesn't seem quite fair here...that is telling others they can't speak for God.   However you are able to contradict scripture and presume to know God's will....  " God's will calls women to preach ",  and " God calls women to be Pastors"   is that not speaking for God?   Not to mention , that claim was based  on  the successful/prosperous Female Ministries and making the assumption that this shows God has blessed them.  But that is not basing it upon the Scripture, which is God's  inerrant Word.   Can you show the Scripture where GOD contradicts Apostle Paul?  and says that The LORD, "God calls women to be Pastors?" .  Thank you.

What probably is the cause of something not seeming fair to you is that you're ignoring what has been talked about in the other thread that is now closed. That the Pauline Pastoral Epistles were Paul's letters to his churches. Not revelations delivered from God. But Paul's letters governing the running of the churches he founded in Corinth, Thessolonia, and elsewhere. 

These pastoral epistles(aka/letters), are the only thing being used to insist God says women cannot assume a leadership role. This is not the case because those pastoral letters are not God's revelation. They are Paul's letters to the churches in his time. And some scholars even question the writing style of the Epistles in 2Timothy as being accorded authorship to Paul.
It is not speaking for God to say God calls women to preach. It is in evidence in the world among the faithful to God and Jesus Christ that there are women pastors in the world. And as such that is evidence of a calling to be a pastor of the word of God itself. 

What is speaking for God is launching from the pastoral letters of Paul to his churches and using that as God's dictate to the world's people to say women cannot assume leadership roles in the church. If that were true there wouldn't be a woman on earth who felt called to ministry. 

And to specifically address the excerpt of my remark that you quoted, I meant what I said. Someone saying they know what God thinks of this thread is speaking for God. And that is not within the purview of any member or any person here. If God were believed to be watching threads in forums a lot of believers in God would likely write different posts than what is currently able to be found on the net. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Wolf Bridges

[enoob57]

11 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey enoob,

do you ever apply context and culture to your analysis of scripture? 

That is all I use is the hermeneutical process of literary interpretation...

I am settled in my understanding of what the Scripture teaches... the man was created for God and the woman for man. Clear cut before culture was initiated found in the created purpose. Lucifer rebelled against the created order in himself and now does the same in all that is here. True peace and strength is to stand where Scripture says to stand and not be moved from that spot!

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, other one said:

one needs to take into consideration the lifestyles and societal norms of the time when the Bible was written when deciding this subject.

1 Corinthians 11:8 (KJV)

[8] For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

[9] Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Timothy 2:10 (KJV)

[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

the fact that God takes us to the created instance removes all cultural consideration and is in fact a created order that cannot be change by culture...
 

[simplejeff]

54 minutes ago, Wolf Bridges said:

These pastoral epistles(aka/letters), are the only thing being used to insist God says women cannot assume a leadership role.

He did not say they cannot assume a leadership role over men.... He simply told them not to, and showed what happens when they do,  as confirmed all through church history, especially the last 75 years or so...

[other one]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

the fact that God takes us to the created instance removes all cultural consideration and is in fact a created order that cannot be change by culture...
 

I would definitely disagree with that...

[Churchmouse]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:46 PM, JohnD said:

Point well taken.

It "could be" the devil trying to confuse the issue.

That's what 1 John 4:1 is all about.

And we test the spirits by scripture.

Now in Judges 4 when God needed a man to step up to prophecy... none did. That mantle fell on Deborah. The man in charge (Barak) wouldn't even go into battle unless Deborah went with the troops. And it was a female (Jael) who killed the arch enemy of Israel Sisera. 

I guess God goofed letting women run the show like that.

When the men were too afraid or too rattled by the crucifixion women went to the tomb and discovered the Lord Jesus raised from the dead.

Shame they couldn't tell anyone... it might be construed as women teaching men.

I could go on, but I tried to make this point initially that when men do not or will not step up then... God has used women to do the job (and to shame the men who refused to).

 

How many times has God used people who were thought incapable of being what was needed in the eyes of man, to bring glory upon himself. Look at David and Goliath. This is military might against overwhelming odds, against an opponent that works against us.  It is not a conduit in which god guides the community in spiritual needs. 

If I'm not mistaken Moses set up the judges to interpret the laws that were already on the books in a case by case basis. It didn't have anything to do with running the church or being apart of the priesthood.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Churchmouse

[Spock]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 

the fact that God takes us to the created instance removes all cultural consideration and is in fact a created order that cannot be change by culture...
 

Enoob, I think you are going to run into trouble if you interpret the Bible without taking culture and context into consideration. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Spock

[Wolf Bridges]

10 hours ago, Davida said:

It is merely your opinion Wolf to dismiss Paul's teaching as only applying to that one church - what about Titus 1:6? .   And Yes, I've read  ALL the posts.   I used to belong to a Church that agreed with you & was raised to believe that was right and then the Lord called me out of that Church and got saved and read the Bible & realized the cherry -picking was just more signs of human rebellion against God and His Word.

Just because someone WANTS to do something does not make that desire from God. Have you read the Bible? LoL It is filled with tales of people following after their own desires instead of the commands of God.

No one is saying the women can't teach there are Plenty of opportunities for women to teach, to serve, or to be in leadership roles but JUST not to be Pastoring a Church or exercising authority over men. As scripture explains God laid out His pattern in Genesis & Paul referenced that , and the fact that Eve was deceived and in transgression. FYI,  I've been to many spiritual conferences during the 90's  and I can tell you , at least 90 % were women and they all were deceived and eagerly brought back the teachings to their family & husband.  

This topic gets discussed  every 6mths or so btw. Many get tired of responding to this repetitive heated debate . My post was just to point out that you were scolding other people for what you continue to do yourself.

Titus 1:6 " 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who are believers and are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination. 7As God’s steward, an overseer must be above reproach—not self-absorbed, not quick tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not greedy for money.…

Titus 1:6 doesn't support the contention women cannot pastor. But it does provide an admonishment for the ill tempered in threads like this. 

What is being argued here is that God discriminates by gender. Of course that's a sin. There is nothing in scripture where God says women cannot pastor. Just because someone insists the letters Paul wrote to the churches mean the churches today cannot act outside of those parameters doesn't mean it is true. Paul was a Pharisee. Legalism was an issue. Culture was an issue in those times.  Jesus had women in his company when he walked with his apostles. And those women learned right beside those apostles. Something women in that era would not have done. Being allowed to be equal in education to the men being educated. 

Jesus broke the societal norms by example. Showing that we are all one in him even when he walked and delivered his ministry. A woman was the one that discovered he had risen. And it was unto her he entrusted his message to go and beckon the other apostles to come see. 
That today's women especially think to abrogate Jesus' example because they wish to call Paul's letter as cause is unfortunate. It isn't what Christ did. Invoking Paul's letters as the reason for gender discrimination while ignoring God's scriptures that tell us he is no respecter of persons. Which means he isn't one to prefer males over females, just doesn't comport with following the word of God. As is claimed by those who insist God discriminates against women because of Paul's pastoral letters. 

That Jesus set the example in his day of having women with him in his company of disciples, women who were also disciples, and to then invoke Paul's letters as reason to ignore all Jesus did in uniting his followers above the societal norms that segregated by gender, isn't righteous. It is something else. But it is not what Jesus exampled. 

See, this is the word of God we're talking about. And the religion that carries Jesus' teachings forward. This isn't Paulianity.This is Christianity. And Jesus example and God's word is what carries the day. 

God isn't a bigot. Paul's letters to his churches should be easy to understand. TO the church in Corinth. TO the church in Thessalonia.  What is hoped to be accomplished by saying in effect Paul's letters TO his churches supersede God's inspired word to the world that said well before that, God is no respecter of persons. Which necessarily means, he does not prefer males over females in service to his will. 

Those who insist that is not true are well able to have faith in the opposite of that. God's word stands eternal to rebut the falsehood. As does every woman pastor on the face of the earth who believes herself called to his service. The opinion that insists that isn't of God is the hubris that insists mischaracterizing letters of one man TO churches he founded overcomes by mortal opinion that God, contrary to his word, is a respecter of persons being he discriminates to say men are more apt for his service. God's will for the whole of his people is to communicate every woman pastor on earth is wrong for being there. Or, worse in the case of the most adamant of gender bias advocates invoking the name of God in the process, because this is a Godly faith not a Pauline faith, God erred when he appointed women to the pulpit. 

Because those mortals opposed to women in the pulpit know he really didn't mean it. And why? Because reading Paul's letters talking about wives tells them so. 

And all those prophetesses in scripture, old and new testaments, well those weren't called of God either. Or, worse? The gender bias argument that insists God called women to prophecy his will, but not to deliver the good news of the prophecy come true in his son Jesus Christ.