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Should Women Be In Leadership Positions in Church?


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On 5/16/2017 at 1:31 PM, JohnD said:

BTW

I don't go willy nilly after liver quivers and spirit influences without testing the spirits as 1 John 4:1 states we are to do in every case.

JohnD, I agree with you, regardless of the topic at hand, it is important that we do not just accept any idea or teaching that comes our way. That could be a sure recipe for disaster. Hope you have a great day. Blessings.

 

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On 4/26/2017 at 0:04 AM, JohnD said:

In another thread I wrote in response to one who found themselves resenting pastors...

----------------------------------------

Well...

You probably need to go into ministry.

You see, Christianity has been hijacked by the Roman Empire (which morphed into Roman Catholicism).

This is not your typical Roman Catholic bashing session... so hear me out.

Better put... the Church Organism has been subjugated to the Church Organization.

I cannot find the exact quote, but I once heard the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee say that the devil realized he could not lick the Church, so through Emperor Constantine the devil joined the Church.

Compromise, disarray, false doctrines, and even the structure of clergy / laity confounds the mission of the Body Christian as much as possible.

Now your local Pastor is not the devil incarnate or to blame. Nearly all of them are doing it for the right reasons... but what they are unwittingly doing is perpetuating the hijacking of the Church.

God bless them! They have stepped up to give their lives to what they thought... what they believed with a whole heart... is the LORD's will... when 99.99% of the rest of us could not be bothered even when we learn what the truth on the subject actually is.

In the New Testament / New Covenant we are ALL priests of God.

No division between clergy and laity. That's Old Testament / Old Covenant.

Actually, God intended all in the covenant to be priests even then...

Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

But Exodus 32 took place (when the Israelites not only made the calf idol and worshiped it, not only engaged in orgies, but were about to return to Egypt and to blend in with the pagans there undoing everything God had done since the calling out of Abram. That is why his response was so bloody. And the tribe that came to Moses' aid (his own the Levites) became the priestly tribe henceforth and the rest of Israel were (if you will) laity.

But in the New Covenant:

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Hearkening back to Exodus 19:6 (a kingdom of priests):

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, don't hate / resent / despise your local preacher... pity them... try to convince them of the truth about what the Bible says.

Most people will not listen to someone who has not been thoroughly indoctrinated / programmed at a denominational seminary.

They just won't.

"Yeah... that's what the Bible says... but because it's coming from you... and not Southwestern Seminary educated... it's not true... or, it will not be received as truth... or regarded..."

Been there too many times.

What it boils down to is placing the authority in the institutions of man rather than the word of God.

I presume you have little to no biblical training. At least not enough to be comfortably in ministry starting tomorrow...

Get trained / educated by the Holy Spirit.

I am not saying you cannot get any good teaching from anyone else... but be sure to filter all things through the word of God.

2Peter 1:20-21

1Thessalonians 5:21

1John 4:1

Acts 17:11

2Timothy 3:16-17

Deuteronomy 29:29

Proverbs 25:2

Deuteronomy 4:2

Deuteronomy 12:32

Proverbs 30:5-6

Revelation 22:18-19

John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10 / Galatians 3:24-28 / Romans 7:14-8:39 / 1John 1:5-2:17

------------------------------------

What I will now add is that anyone who has the slightest qualm about women pastors / teachers / leaders needs to step up into ministry themselves!

I used to argue against women in authority in the Church (actually women usurping the authority of men in the Church) with airtight scriptural arguments that went into Greek and Hebrew and new and old testament texts and examples. And I bludgeoned female pastors every chance I got with those arguments. 

Then one day the Spirit asked me (not in words exactly) "So it's better, then, that the Gospel does not get out at all than a woman should preach it?"

I was completely undone.

And I repented on the spot.

Every time (for whatever reason) men did not step up, God filled the void with a woman. From the Prophetess Deborah to Pastor Jane today. 

IF all of us who are priests of God and called to be pastors and teachers and leaders (not all are called to these positions but all are priests) but if the quota was even 50% (being conservative here) there might be a biblical case against women usurping the authority of men... but we are woefully short of 50% people! 

I would be shocked if we had 1% of all who are called to this ministry who actually heard  the call and stepped up.

Less than 1%.

So should women preach / teach / lead?

Absotively!

And God bless them!

 

John,

i just found this post of yours and oh my, it is BEAUTIFUL!  I especially love your Damascus road experience with the Lord showing you that you are serving yourself, not Him in this matter.  That is a powerful testimony.  

 I believe  God showed me the same thing when I started asking questions, such as why people don't follow the 4th commandment anymore?  Questions like that took me down a path I had not expected. Ultimately it was revealed to me the fullness of what being one in Christ means, that there is neither male nor female, Jew or Gentile....IN CHRIST!  And that God gives gifts and talents to ALL, and that they should not be buried. 

Like you, this revelation freed me up from previous biases and since then I too believe God wants me to be his ambassador on this topic.  I know this is subjective so maybe it is not of God. Nevertheless, I live and follow my conscience. 

To God be the glory,

spock

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On 4/26/2017 at 6:15 PM, Eha said:

i, as a woman, and was put in situation, that i had to act like man, almost 10 years, still believe, because i have some experience, what means to be a man (just some) and having several man-friends and having a huge interest - who is a man ( :) ) and talking about it with God, now are very sure - man  do that job better, in many ways. 

but i am agree with you - there are women, who are good in that position also. if God did choose some women to lead whole nation (even married), there had to be a good reason. and i DO believe - God KNOWS what He is doing , so i trust Him, when He says - i make no difference between man and woman.

so +1 from me

Thanks Eha for your thoughts on this. I like what you said about God knowing what He is doing and it being important that we trust Him. Something that I know I am learning to do more and more. I hope you have a great week. Blessings.

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3 hours ago, Spock said:

I was just notified of this thread. Lol

we have been discussing this issue pretty thoroughly in another section of this website called General Discussion. If you go there and look for a thread called "Misogyny" you will see that much of that thread has come down to leadership of women. You can find my thoughts on that thread. I don't feel ambitious enough to repeat myself, so if you want to know, you have to go.  Lol  

Just to wet your appetite, I for one in no way believe God cares who is doing his work and that he gives talents and gifts to all, without discriminating by race, creed, color, and GENDER.  That is my humble opinion based on over 30 years of studying the Bible from cover to cover,  considering the entire word (not just one writer),  considering and applying context and culture and lastly, using common sense in this application. 

cheers,

Spock

 

Hi Spock, thank you so much for your message here. I will have a look at the thread that you mention and see your thoughts and comments. I was wondering if in all your years of study if you use only one version of the Bible, or do you change them? (Just asking out of interest).  It would be good to find out how you go about studying the Bible too. There may be a thread on that already, and I may find it sometime. Just thought I would ask.

 

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17 minutes ago, Annette said:

Hi Spock, thank you so much for your message here. I will have a look at the thread that you mention and see your thoughts and comments. I was wondering if in all your years of study if you use only one version of the Bible, or do you change them? (Just asking out of interest).  It would be good to find out how you go about studying the Bible too. There may be a thread on that already, and I may find it sometime. Just thought I would ask.

 

Much of my study now is online through BibleHub.com which allows you to view many different translations of your choosing.  For example, if there is a verse or passage that intrigues me, I will pull up multi translations for that verse and compare. Stuff like that.

mostly, I use NIV. 

Ooops, I didn't answer all of your questions. How do I study the Bible? Well, I just retired a few months ago so now I begin each day with coffee in one hand and Bible in the other. I usually read about 30 minutes. Today I read 1 Timothy. Tomorrow I probably will re-read that and make notes.  I usually take notes in my notebook after each reading. By that I mean, I write my thoughts on something that spoke to me. I will continue reading 1 Timothy until I feel ready to move on. 

Every saturday, my wife and I co-lead a home fellowship group of believers who share our belief to keep the Sabbath Day holy (4th commandment).  Besides prayer and praise, we read two chapters in the OT and two chapters in the NT.  Sometimes only one if we have so much conversation on just the one. We just finished 1 Chronicles and moved into 2 Chronicles. We are winding down Matthews Gospel and we have chosen the book of Acts next.  We decide. 

I also have reference books to assist my personal study like atlases or complete guide of the Bible to assist, stuff like that. 

And of course, I google lots of topics that I want more info on throughout my study. For example, the last topic I wanted to read more on was- the book of Enoch. 

Anyhow, I hope this helps. 

Spock

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2 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

The man was made first and was given the task of keeping he garden.  He was not doing his job effectively, as we read that Adam was with Eve at the time of the deception.  Adam knew full well, but allowed his wife to be deceived by the serpent, and then partook of the fruit himself after her.  It seems to be a pattern since then... men not stepping up to their God-given roles and the family suffering because of it.  It is clear from Scripture that God's plan is for the man to lead his family in the ways of God.  It is also clear that if there is a godly man who can and will fill a leadership role, it should be done by such a man.  But there are many examples in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) of women being used of God in roles such as judge, prophetess, deaconess, teachers, disciples, pastors, etc.  Paul himself attended home churches that were led by women.  This is why the Word of God should be rightly divided and not dissected for Scriptures to be taken out of context and used to support their favored or preferred views.

Being the garden was invoked in this message, with regard to leadership roles, Adam failed miserably in that respect. And due to that caused the downfall of the human race to befall. 

 

I think when the scriptures tell us we cannot know the mind of God because he does not think as we do, nor can we think as God thinks, of course, that our prejudices being attached to God and his will is wrong thinking. And further, that we believe God would discriminate against a woman is not evident in the actions of his son who had women in his company. And women who delivered the good news to the world after he ascended to Heaven. Which in those times would be like unto preaching. Just as Jesus did when he gave his teachings. He was preaching. 

We agree God doesn't think as we do, because we say that's what scripture says. Then we argue God discriminates like we do and that isn't in scripture. That's a little odd I think. 

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4 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

The man was made first and was given the task of keeping he garden.  He was not doing his job effectively, as we read that Adam was with Eve at the time of the deception.  Adam knew full well, but allowed his wife to be deceived by the serpent, and then partook of the fruit himself after her.  It seems to be a pattern since then... men not stepping up to their God-given roles and the family suffering because of it.  It is clear from Scripture that God's plan is for the man to lead his family in the ways of God.  It is also clear that if there is a godly man who can and will fill a leadership role, it should be done by such a man.  But there are many examples in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) of women being used of God in roles such as judge, prophetess, deaconess, teachers, disciples, pastors, etc.  Paul himself attended home churches that were led by women.  This is why the Word of God should be rightly divided and not dissected for Scriptures to be taken out of context and used to support their favored or preferred views.

Abby- you bring me much Joy,

I bet most people, even Christians, do not even know Adam was right there with Eve when she ate. I think perhaps people want to believe it was all on that woman......Eve, and that Satan had to sneak on over to her when Adam wasn't around because surely the man would not sin.  Lol. Yeah right! 

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

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13 minutes ago, Spock said:

Abby- you bring me much Joy,

I bet most people, even Christians, do not even know Adam was right there with Eve when she ate. I think perhaps people want to believe it was all on that woman......Eve, and that Satan had to sneak on over to her when Adam wasn't around because surely the man would not sin.  Lol. Yeah right! 

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Spock, I have wondered the same thing, about Adam being there with Eve. It is not something we often hear about. 

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27 minutes ago, Annette said:

Spock, I have wondered the same thing, about Adam being there with Eve. It is not something we often hear about. 

No, you don't. Wonder why?  Lol

Here is another possible misconception you might not be aware of- we are also led to believe there were 3 Magi who showed up at the stable when Jesus was born bringing gifts, right?  In other words, they popped up pretty much immediately after birth. 

Really?

Read Matthew 2:9 carefully:

9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

spock thoughts: the Magi, never gave a number, but more than one for sure.  Yes, they brought three gifts but this does not prove there were three magi. They came to his HOUSE (didn't stay manger,or stable.  Is a stable a house? ) They saw the CHILD, didn't say baby or infant.   It seems very possible to me that Jesus may have been one year old, give or take some months because Herod had all kids killed under 2 years old.  Do you think Herod would have ordered all kids killed up to 2'years old if he knew Jesus was just born?  Anyhow, I feel pretty strong in saying this- he was not just born when they arrived, which is the story we have been told, right? 

Sorry to get off topic. I'm open to be corrected if I'm misled here. 

 

 

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Hey Giller, 

Interesting point. Something to consider. 

 

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